Interestingly enough, my two Bibles both say ARCHANGEL Gabriel.
Which is a major flaw in organized religion. One mistranslation of a single word and you create wars, inquistions, and door-to-door salesmen.
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"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
- Archaic`
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And given how often the JW's mistranslate sections of the bible to justify their beliefs (The mistranslations of "hypocrite" as "apostate" for example), and even in some cases cut sections out they don't like (Matthew 27:53 anyone?), I wouldn't be all too suprised if the change from archangel to angel was deliberate so they could harp on with this Jesus = Michael fallacy.
EDIT: Then again..
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk001.html#26
Gabriel's called an Angel there, not an Archangel
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... -9082.html
Those seem to be the only two times the word archangel is used in the bible.
Oh, and I found the quote C.S.Strowbridge would've been referring to earlier BTW.
1 Corinthians 1:10 (JW's NWT)
"Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."
From the Skeptics Annotated Bible..
EDIT: Then again..
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Luk/Luk001.html#26
Gabriel's called an Angel there, not an Archangel
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... -9082.html
Those seem to be the only two times the word archangel is used in the bible.
Oh, and I found the quote C.S.Strowbridge would've been referring to earlier BTW.
1 Corinthians 1:10 (JW's NWT)
"Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."
From the Skeptics Annotated Bible..
The Governing Body uses this verse to control the thoughts and beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses. They are instructed not to accept or read the religious literature of others, not to listen to criticism of the Watchtower Society's teachings, and to fight against independent thinking.
Veni Vidi Castravi Illegitimos
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- Fundamentalist Moron
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Incredible.
You really DO know nothing about us.
You're taking all of this from the skeptics' annotated Bible. That quote from it is absolutely incorrect. It is not a method of control. This isn't Nazi Germany. It's a means of encouragement to love one another and to be mindful that everyone has a point of view, and that we shouldn't argue lest it cause a rift between us and our fellow brothers and sisters.
And I find it quite amusing that you still hold to the statement that what I've said is a fallacy when you haven't disproved it by any stretch of the imagination.
"...mistranslate sections of the bible to justify their beliefs..."
And you've read our bible, is that right? I sincerely doubt it. And while you're at it, why don't you criticise the fact that we don't so readily accept the first 11 verses of John 8, when we do itbeacuse there are no complying manuscripts detailing the same thing?
What do you mean, Matthew 27:53? It's in there!
"(And persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after being raised up, entered into his holy city), and they became visible to many people."
So? Any other fallacies you want to spew about us? Ignorance never wins an argument (like my stint vs. evolution)...
You really DO know nothing about us.
You're taking all of this from the skeptics' annotated Bible. That quote from it is absolutely incorrect. It is not a method of control. This isn't Nazi Germany. It's a means of encouragement to love one another and to be mindful that everyone has a point of view, and that we shouldn't argue lest it cause a rift between us and our fellow brothers and sisters.
And I find it quite amusing that you still hold to the statement that what I've said is a fallacy when you haven't disproved it by any stretch of the imagination.
"...mistranslate sections of the bible to justify their beliefs..."
And you've read our bible, is that right? I sincerely doubt it. And while you're at it, why don't you criticise the fact that we don't so readily accept the first 11 verses of John 8, when we do itbeacuse there are no complying manuscripts detailing the same thing?
What do you mean, Matthew 27:53? It's in there!
"(And persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after being raised up, entered into his holy city), and they became visible to many people."
So? Any other fallacies you want to spew about us? Ignorance never wins an argument (like my stint vs. evolution)...
Three rings for the NATO leaders under the sky,
Five for the UN defense board in their halls of stone,
Nine for the weak allies, doomed to die,
One for the patient man on his throne
In the land of America where all nukes lie.
One Bush to rule them all, One Bush to find them,
One Bush to bring them all and in the UN bind them
In the land of America where all the nukes lie.
Five for the UN defense board in their halls of stone,
Nine for the weak allies, doomed to die,
One for the patient man on his throne
In the land of America where all nukes lie.
One Bush to rule them all, One Bush to find them,
One Bush to bring them all and in the UN bind them
In the land of America where all the nukes lie.
- Archaic`
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It's sad really. I seem to know more about your own religion than you do. Quite pathetic. Don't assume that just because I'm a newbie here and an athiest that I lack knowledge or the means to get it.
I got the quote from your own translation of the bible. I simply quoted the SAB's comment on it because I agree with that assessment.
1 Corinthians 1:10 (JW's NWT) (Emphasis Mine)
"Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."
I'm sorry, this promotes people having their own viewpoint? Pull the other one.
Oh, and I have read your bible. And many of the other versions of it. Not cover to cover of course, I tend to put it down in disgust at all the supposedly justified atrocities at some point, but I've read enough. In any case, it's a red herring. How much I've read your bible is irrelevant. That the JW's have mistranslated sections of the bible to justify their beliefs is a fact you can't deny. If you'd like to try to, stand up to my point about mistranslating "hypocrite" as "apostate" instead of avoiding the issue.
From the Skeptics Annotated Bible
Your Governing Body puts it in brackets in your translation because it directly contradicts certain tenents of your faith. Do I really need to point that fact out to you when you typed the brackets yourself? The dead being raised and walking around after Jesus' death directly contradicts Watchtower teaching that the dead are supposed to remain dead until after Armageddon, at which time those faithful to the governing body will be resurrected.
I got the quote from your own translation of the bible. I simply quoted the SAB's comment on it because I agree with that assessment.
1 Corinthians 1:10 (JW's NWT) (Emphasis Mine)
"Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."
I'm sorry, this promotes people having their own viewpoint? Pull the other one.
Oh, and I have read your bible. And many of the other versions of it. Not cover to cover of course, I tend to put it down in disgust at all the supposedly justified atrocities at some point, but I've read enough. In any case, it's a red herring. How much I've read your bible is irrelevant. That the JW's have mistranslated sections of the bible to justify their beliefs is a fact you can't deny. If you'd like to try to, stand up to my point about mistranslating "hypocrite" as "apostate" instead of avoiding the issue.
From the Skeptics Annotated Bible
I await your response.Apostates
An ex-JW is an apostate, and no one is more despised and feared by the GB. JWs are not allowed to speak to them under pain of disfellowshipping. Apostates will meet a horrible end at Armageddon, much worse than that reserved for regular nonJWs. To justify their hatred toward their former members, the NWT uses the word "apostate" wherever other translations have "hypocrite". Thus, they can claim that the bible says the following about exJWs:
"Before him [Jehovah] no apostate will come in." Job 13:16
They have no hope; Jehovah has abandoned them, destroyed their souls, and ignores their prayers. Job 27:8-9
Jehovah has condemned them to live and die among the male prostitutes. Job 36:13-14
They mock Jehovah and grind their teeth against him. Ps.35:16
By their mouths they bring their others to ruin. Pr.11:9
Jehovah will show no mercy to apostates or to their fatherless children. Is.9:17
They do "what is hurtful" and "speak against Jehovah." Is.32:6
They are fearful sinners. Is.33:14
They will be put to shame for "apostatizing from" Jehovah. (KJV says "all that forsake thee shall be ashamed.") Jer.17:13
Are hopeless and will never repent. Heb.6:4
Your Governing Body puts it in brackets in your translation because it directly contradicts certain tenents of your faith. Do I really need to point that fact out to you when you typed the brackets yourself? The dead being raised and walking around after Jesus' death directly contradicts Watchtower teaching that the dead are supposed to remain dead until after Armageddon, at which time those faithful to the governing body will be resurrected.
Veni Vidi Castravi Illegitimos
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From what you're about to wite, it doesn't seem that way to me.Archaic` wrote:It's sad really. I seem to know more about your own religion than you do.
It only compounds my previous opinions of you, and multiplies them a fewfold.
Mm - hm. Just because you agree with it doesn't make it true. I could say 'you're all gay', and if someone were to agree with the assesment, then from your point of argument, that would automatically make it true. You can't just put up stuff because you agree with it. Arguments don't always work that way.I simply quoted the SAB's comment on it because I agree with that assessment.
Ah, the great anti - fundie tradition of NOT READING THE WHOLE POST BEFORE BITING IT DOWN. Not only do you know nothing of our religion outside of what your precious skeptics' annotated Bible says, which is in itself filled with half - truths at best, but it seems you can't read either. So I'll put it in terms you can understand.but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."
I'm sorry, this promotes people having their own viewpoint? Pull the other one.
It's a means of encouragement to love one another and to be mindful that everyone has a point of view ON VARIOUS THINGS AND THAT WE SHOULDN'T ARGUE ON PETTY THINGS THAT COULD DAMAGE OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS.
That better, or do you need further clarification?
Explain why. If I were to say in an essay of comparison between one chapter of a book and another, and were to say, 'the fact that I've read the chapters is irrelevant', do you suppose that the examiner would look favourably on me?the fact that I've read your Bible is irrelevant.
Of course, Catholicism and Protestantism haven't been doing that with their immortal soul doctrines and hellfire teachings, have they? The replacement of hypocrite with apostate (and there is a reason for it, which I shall explain in a minute) seems rather insignificant to me.That the JW's have mistranslated sections of the bible to justify their beliefs is a fact you can't deny. If you'd like to try to, stand up to my point about mistranslating "hypocrite" as "apostate" instead of avoiding the issue.
Oh, well. I'll answer you (which I had thought not to do before due to the lack of purpose that answering such a question would achieve when you are only going to treat the matter as ad hominem stuff). In Psalms 35: 16, It mentions the words 'the apostate mockers for a cake'. The direct translation of this phrase is 'ungodly buffoons for a cake'. Would you call an apostate person 'ungodly'? The definition of an apostate is someone who rebels against his previous religious beliefs. Does he not then become ungodly? And to a religious person, would he not seem a buffoon for rejecting holy truths? Therefore, the translation of 'apostate' should be summarily justified'.
Yipee. This again.From the skeptics annotated Bible
Not necessarily. A disfellowshipped one is not an apostate. We quantify apostacy by those who actively engage in upsetting our religious balance. For instance, eearlier this year, people went up to one of our kingdom halls and sellotaped anti - Jehovah's witness literature to the front of the hall.An ex-JW is an apostate,and no one is more despised and feared by the GB.
What do you call them? Misinformed? I call them apostates, and with examples like this, I should say that there's no wonder for that. We do not fear them. We keep them at arm's length in order for them not to interfere with the way we worship. The last time I checked, democracy allowed for a right to religious expression. People like the example I have given above are not just stifling our organisation, they are also stifling basic human rights. So, what do you call them?
Wrong, wrong, wrong. This is absurd. We hold out hope for these people that they will realise the grievousness of their errors. We are glad to see them at the kingdom hall, so long as they are not there to stir up trouble. We don't have a special fate reserved for them at armageddon. They are not ultra - hated people to look down on like am'harets. They are people too. Wrong in faith, but we cannot do anything about that. We have free will. God made us that way. It's your choice whether you want to serve him or not. We won't hate you for it.JWs are not allowed to speak to them under pain of disfellowshipping. Apostates will meet a horrible end at Armageddon, much worse than that reserved for regular nonJWs.
Stop relying on this JW - bashing, biased sorce of information. It gets you nowhewre.
Uh, no they don't. Brackets are only used for plurals and proper names in place of he, she, you, I, it, and them. Not for contradicting things, as we don't have them.Your Governing Body puts it in brackets in your translation because it directly contradicts certain tenents of your faith.
Does it say how long after Jesus' death? Besides, there are plenty of scriptures that mention deaths of souls and perishing of the entire person anyway, which contradict your point.The dead being raised and walking around after Jesus' death directly contradicts Watchtower teaching that the dead are supposed to remain dead until after Armageddon, at which time those faithful to the governing body will be resurrected.
Still think you know more than me about my religion? Care to try your luck again? Quite presumptuous of you, really, and I hope the irony isn't lost on you... Now stop wasting my time with half - hearted ridiculous arguments taken from an absurd source that is filled with fallacies. Why don't you get it from the horses' mouth instead?
Three rings for the NATO leaders under the sky,
Five for the UN defense board in their halls of stone,
Nine for the weak allies, doomed to die,
One for the patient man on his throne
In the land of America where all nukes lie.
One Bush to rule them all, One Bush to find them,
One Bush to bring them all and in the UN bind them
In the land of America where all the nukes lie.
Five for the UN defense board in their halls of stone,
Nine for the weak allies, doomed to die,
One for the patient man on his throne
In the land of America where all nukes lie.
One Bush to rule them all, One Bush to find them,
One Bush to bring them all and in the UN bind them
In the land of America where all the nukes lie.
- Wicked Pilot
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WHO GIVES A FUCK?!Australopithicus wrote:Does it say how long after Jesus' death? Besides, there are plenty of scriptures that mention deaths of souls and perishing of the entire person anyway, which contradict your point.
Take this thread-hijacking bullshit somewhere else. This thread is suppost to be about evolution in public schools, not people debating trivial tenates of old myths.
If any mods are reading, please go ahead and close this waste of time.
The most basic assumption about the world is that it does not contradict itself.