Grrrr... I find msyelf in a debate (on a group about the IRA no less), about the Israelies and Palestinians. One person is trying to infer than I am anti-Jewish because I disagree with Israel's heavy-handed tactics, even as I condem Palestinian terror attacks in the same sentence!
Part of the problem, is that one of the two people I am debating is a friend. We have our disagreements, but she won't snipe and put me down like the other guy. I want to get my point across, but in a reasonable way. Trouble is, she can be as stubborn as me sometimes. Any advice?
The Israel/Palestine question...
Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
The Israel/Palestine question...
Hakuna Matata
The Forums of Sothis! http://www.1-2-free-forums.com/mf/sothis.html
The Forums of Sothis! http://www.1-2-free-forums.com/mf/sothis.html
Re: The Israel/Palestine question...
Bring her over here.Sothis wrote:Grrrr... I find msyelf in a debate (on a group about the IRA no less), about the Israelies and Palestinians. One person is trying to infer than I am anti-Jewish because I disagree with Israel's heavy-handed tactics, even as I condem Palestinian terror attacks in the same sentence!
Part of the problem, is that one of the two people I am debating is a friend. We have our disagreements, but she won't snipe and put me down like the other guy. I want to get my point across, but in a reasonable way. Trouble is, she can be as stubborn as me sometimes. Any advice?
Go, tell the Spartans, stranger passing by,
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.
That here, obedient to their laws, we lie.
-
GrandMasterTerwynn
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 6787
- Joined: 2002-07-29 06:14pm
- Location: Somewhere on Earth.
Re: The Israel/Palestine question...
It's always difficult to debate the Israel vs. Palestine issue. For a lot of people, they've been conditioned to believe anti-Israel = anti-semite hate-mongerer. It is a preconcieved notion that's pretty hard to overcome. If you're here, then I assume you've read Mike's Middle East rant at some point. If you haven't, then that has a lot of good information and brings up some good points.Sothis wrote:Grrrr... I find msyelf in a debate (on a group about the IRA no less), about the Israelies and Palestinians. One person is trying to infer than I am anti-Jewish because I disagree with Israel's heavy-handed tactics, even as I condem Palestinian terror attacks in the same sentence!
Part of the problem, is that one of the two people I am debating is a friend. We have our disagreements, but she won't snipe and put me down like the other guy. I want to get my point across, but in a reasonable way. Trouble is, she can be as stubborn as me sometimes. Any advice?
Tales of the Known Worlds:
2070s - The Seventy-Niners ... 3500s - Fair as Death ... 4900s - Against Improbable Odds V 1.0
2070s - The Seventy-Niners ... 3500s - Fair as Death ... 4900s - Against Improbable Odds V 1.0
Yeah, you have to explain that the Isreal v Palenstine conflict is more than a he said she said, black and white issue. It has gone on for so long that, that's what it has become in peoples mind but one has to change his/her perspective on it now and again for a reality check.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
-
Coyote
- Rabid Monkey
- Posts: 12464
- Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
- Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
- Contact:
I can help if you want, I started lurking this board in 1998-99 or so when I was living in Israel and became a contributing member when I got back to the US four months ago (June-July 2002).
The fear that the Israelis have is that questioning their right to security is like questioning their right to exist, which sparks a deep-seated and insane fear that lives buried within each of them. For many Israelis, they see the world as actively conspiring against them, and there is no small reason for that fear-- it is established, for example, that UN border guards, supposedly neutral, frequently look theother way when terrorists engage in cross-border raids. The UN has also frequently denounced Israel for not adhering to treaties and standards while surrounding states pretty much get away with anything, and as we see, UN Resolutions applied to Arab states like Iraq are basically ignored the moment they are passed.
The recent wave of anti-Semitic attacks in Europe spark fears in them as well, and when Israelis ask what can be done to stop the terror and attacks on Jews overseas, they are told to do things that, from their pov, would amount to giving prizes to the Palestinians for their terror, and to bare their throats to further attacks.
Both sides have screwed the Oslo accords: the Palestinians were supposed to dismantle their terror apparatus and arrest terrorists; the Israelis were supposed to de-colonize Palestinian territory. In truth, both sides reneged on these promises.
Most Israelis are smart enough to realize that only through de-colonializing will there be peace, and groups such as "Peace Now" actively promote this. A scandal erupted as I was leaving the country about 37 officers and soldiers that signed a petition stating their intent to refuse any orders to enter the Territories and their willingness to go to jail instead. There are moderate Palestinians and Israelis willing to work a compromise, but unfortunately the governments of both countries are in the hands of fear-mongers who ride peoples' terror to secure their own seats of power.
There must be two states for two people, an Israel and a Palestine with clear and secure borders for both, no special restrictive conditions or other limitations on soverighnty. I disagree with Mike Wong in that a country and its people have a right to define themselves by a social pattern (ie, a religion) they hold in common. It does not trouble me if Iran wants to be an Islamic Republic, or if India is a Hindu nation, the only caveat being that members of other backgrounds are not discriminated against...
The fear that the Israelis have is that questioning their right to security is like questioning their right to exist, which sparks a deep-seated and insane fear that lives buried within each of them. For many Israelis, they see the world as actively conspiring against them, and there is no small reason for that fear-- it is established, for example, that UN border guards, supposedly neutral, frequently look theother way when terrorists engage in cross-border raids. The UN has also frequently denounced Israel for not adhering to treaties and standards while surrounding states pretty much get away with anything, and as we see, UN Resolutions applied to Arab states like Iraq are basically ignored the moment they are passed.
The recent wave of anti-Semitic attacks in Europe spark fears in them as well, and when Israelis ask what can be done to stop the terror and attacks on Jews overseas, they are told to do things that, from their pov, would amount to giving prizes to the Palestinians for their terror, and to bare their throats to further attacks.
Both sides have screwed the Oslo accords: the Palestinians were supposed to dismantle their terror apparatus and arrest terrorists; the Israelis were supposed to de-colonize Palestinian territory. In truth, both sides reneged on these promises.
Most Israelis are smart enough to realize that only through de-colonializing will there be peace, and groups such as "Peace Now" actively promote this. A scandal erupted as I was leaving the country about 37 officers and soldiers that signed a petition stating their intent to refuse any orders to enter the Territories and their willingness to go to jail instead. There are moderate Palestinians and Israelis willing to work a compromise, but unfortunately the governments of both countries are in the hands of fear-mongers who ride peoples' terror to secure their own seats of power.
There must be two states for two people, an Israel and a Palestine with clear and secure borders for both, no special restrictive conditions or other limitations on soverighnty. I disagree with Mike Wong in that a country and its people have a right to define themselves by a social pattern (ie, a religion) they hold in common. It does not trouble me if Iran wants to be an Islamic Republic, or if India is a Hindu nation, the only caveat being that members of other backgrounds are not discriminated against...
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
That my Friend is about as likley to work as "Seperate Yet Equal" did in AmericaIt does not trouble me if Iran wants to be an Islamic Republic, or if India is a Hindu nation, the only caveat being that members of other backgrounds are not discriminated against...
"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
-
Coyote
- Rabid Monkey
- Posts: 12464
- Joined: 2002-08-23 01:20am
- Location: The glorious Sun-Barge! Isis, Isis, Ra,Ra,Ra!
- Contact:
Catholics, Jews, Athiests, Protestants, and Wiccans (as well as many others) all have equal access to resources in the US, limited only by their desire to get jobs, schooling, and so on to secure their own future. They also have legal recourse should they find discrimination being wielded against them.
There's no way that a society will ever totally get rid of discrimination. There'll always be someone who doesn't like people of "x" background. But how much the Government tolerates, condones or actively encourages this can be a judge.
In the US, religion is not so much of a factor as race, in this arena we have a long way yet to go. Maybe I am optimistic but I think only a small percentage of the problem here is from active, aware hatred like WAR or WCotC. Most are just ignorant of realities.
There's no way that a society will ever totally get rid of discrimination. There'll always be someone who doesn't like people of "x" background. But how much the Government tolerates, condones or actively encourages this can be a judge.
In the US, religion is not so much of a factor as race, in this arena we have a long way yet to go. Maybe I am optimistic but I think only a small percentage of the problem here is from active, aware hatred like WAR or WCotC. Most are just ignorant of realities.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."
In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!
If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
-
The Dark
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 7378
- Joined: 2002-10-31 10:28pm
- Location: Promoting ornithological awareness
I agree that while it is a wonderful ideal to have a country with no preference towards religion, that is not likely to happen in the Middle East. Even our erstwhile allies Saudi Arabia will not permit non-Muslims in Mecca, making that city a potential haven for Al Qaeda members. I have no real problem with a nation saying "we exist to be a homeland for the people of x religion," as long as there are no policies limiting religion in any way (except for ways that are anti-humanist, such as human sacrifice, but that's fairly rare these days). Both sides are to blame for the "Middle East Problem," but unfortunately there are very powerful lobbies for both sides that will scream bloody murder whenever someone tries to claim the other side isn't a bunch of evil creatures from their version of Hell. It appears that the Jewish lobby is stronger in the US, and the Palestinian lobby stronger in the EU (from various snippets of information I've gotten). Unfortunately, all too many people listen to the mass media rather than actually digging for their own information. Both sides need to be sat down in a room and told they cannot leave until they hammer out a peace treaty and that the UN (or US, or EU, or bloody WHOEVER can be neutral) will be watching to take out whoever violates that treaty...either side.
BattleTech for SilCoreStanley Hauerwas wrote:[W]hy is it that no one is angry at the inequality of income in this country? I mean, the inequality of income is unbelievable. Unbelievable. Why isn’t that ever an issue of politics? Because you don’t live in a democracy. You live in a plutocracy. Money rules.