Is there anything good about Religion?

[Howedar]

I suppose when you arbitrarily define words to mean whatever you want them to mean, it's hard to lose an argument

[Darth Wong]

I suppose when you arbitrarily define words to mean whatever you want them to mean, it's hard to lose an argument

He's obviously referring to theology-based religion. Any religion with an authoritative "holy book" qualifies for his particular definition of religion. It's narrower than the dictionary definition but not in a way that would exclude Christianity, Islam, or Judaism.

[Patrick Degan]

Any human institution, particularly ones predicated upon hierarchial structures, is bound to be riven with human flaws. You can find great good as well as great evil in religion. The particular problem with revealed religion is that it denies the cycle of life by presenting a Supreme Judge and a Heaven to both threaten and bribe the believers with. Of course, natural religion has occasionally showed its dark side with the odd human sacrifice —although events brought about by mere superstition never raked up nearly as large a body-count in human history as those arising from doctrinal insanity.

I don't believe in organised religion or in the idea of an afterlife. I will say that some teachings of the Church have remained with me as important components of my conscience, and so far as that goes, I can find some positive value in religion. However, having seen and learned as much as I have in the intervening years between by term in Catholic school and the present, I'd also reached the point where I had to "put away childish things", as the Psalms phrase it, long ago.

[Darth Wong]

Theological monotheistic religion, based on the recorded revelations of long-dead "prophets", is the worst thing that has ever happened to mankind. It has a natural tendency toward intolerance (someone who believes in a different god must, by definition, by denying the truth of my monotheism, so there is a conflict that would not exist if I was polytheistic), and it resists progress in all its forms by making ancient writings the ultimate and immutable authority.

In essence, scriptural religions are plagued not only with human flaws, but the human flaws of primitive humans from thousands of years ago.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Theological monotheistic religion, based on the recorded revelations of long-dead "prophets", is the worst thing that has ever happened to mankind. It has a natural tendency toward intolerance (someone who believes in a different god must, by definition, by denying the truth of my monotheism, so there is a conflict that would not exist if I was polytheistic), and it resists progress in all its forms by making ancient writings the ultimate and immutable authority.

What sort of responses do you usually get to that accusation? Whenever I spout the "religion has done nothing" statement, I'm bombarded with the collective ramblings of numerous people who explain it's been a good way to look at life, it helps people get through hard times and it's moral and goodwill spreading rather than a memetic plague on humanity.

I do believe a lot of our problems today stem from religion. Getting lynched for that viewpoint is quite common elsewhere on the Net.

[Darth Wong]

Theological monotheistic religion, based on the recorded revelations of long-dead "prophets", is the worst thing that has ever happened to mankind. It has a natural tendency toward intolerance (someone who believes in a different god must, by definition, by denying the truth of my monotheism, so there is a conflict that would not exist if I was polytheistic), and it resists progress in all its forms by making ancient writings the ultimate and immutable authority.

What sort of responses do you usually get to that accusation?

Usually a lot of angry comments about how offensive and intolerant I am for daring to make a statement (remember, when you're Christian, it's not intolerant to use the law to discriminate against gays, but when you're an atheist, it's intolerant to merely speak your mind about religion).

Whenever I spout the "religion has done nothing" statement, I'm bombarded with the collective ramblings of numerous people who explain it's been a good way to look at life, it helps people get through hard times and it's moral and goodwill spreading rather than a memetic plague on humanity.

Yeah, after the "How dare you" comments, they give me the usual tripe about how religion is responsible for everything good that happened in the last 2000 years, thanks to the typical false-cause fallacies.

I do believe a lot of our problems today stem from religion. Getting lynched for that viewpoint is quite common elsewhere on the Net.

My favourite exchange was from a while ago on the phpBB forums, when someone angrily asked "I suppose you think Jesus was just a delusional madman, right"? To which he obviously expected some kind of waffling answer, and to which I answered simply "Yes."

[Admiral Valdemar]

I find it's usually the same people that decry Islam as being a hatred inducing religion that is ruining our already corrupted world (though some do see religion as a single entity with different interpretations that are not harmful to their specific denomination rather than we're right, they're wrong). But then again, hardly a new development given these guys had literal Crusades a fair few years back as a sort of celebrity religion deathmatch: Christianity vs. Islam.

And yet, opposing gay marriage, evangelizing non-believers and threatening or even killing abortion doctors isn't bad in their eyes.

[Patrick Degan]

My favourite exchange was from a while ago on the phpBB forums, when someone angrily asked "I suppose you think Jesus was just a delusional madman, right"? To which he obviously expected some kind of waffling answer, and to which I answered simply "Yes."

I can imagine how that went over.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

well, it kinda makes some sense. If people ran arouind today proclaiming themselves God/son of God, i am pretty sure I would think him insane.

[brianeyci]

Oh, as for the poll, let's try none of the above. It's both redundant and loaded more than my neighbor's shotguns on the opening day of deer season. The options require either a scathing indictment of religion, or for the voter to paint himself as a moron, or both in the case of the second option. Abstain.

My mistake. I thought that everybody would have a very strong view one way or the other. I didn't think to think of the minority. The last option is kind of a "I don't care" option, but with "colorful metaphors" as Spock would say =D.

Brian

[Frank_Scenario]

The main project of religion, as I see it, is twofold. First, there is an effort to make sense of the world and the human condition. Second, it is to make good people. All of this seems wise and admirable.
Obviously, this project has not been an unalloyed success. Measuring its success is troublesome, since so much of this is only applicable on the level of the individual person.

Certainly, religion has been involved in plenty of atrocities throughout human history, but it also motivates great acts of kindness and virtue. I don't think you are likely to find more good or evil in religion than in any other human enterprise, once you take into account the fact that religion is one aspect of the human condition which has always been around (unlike, say, science or economic activity).

I don't have a problem with religion being irrational, although I do have a problem when it turns into anti-rational behavior. Sometimes, deception in the service to a greater good is both laudable and obligatory. Consider this scenario: a house is burning; children are inside, asleep. A parent wakes them, and tells them that there are presents outside. Now, young children may not understand the risk of fire. They're likely to want to save some of their possessions. However, presents will get them running. It seems clear that the parent ought to be praised for this action, despite the fact that it subverts reason.

There is, of course, an epistemic issue which I am eliding; I'm not sure if religion stands in a qualitatively different position than any other human endeavor when it comes to getting at the truth.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Religion at best, is a maladaptive quality of culture. It encourages weakness, humility, and it's intellecually dangerous for society. It also tends to produce lack of responsibility and scapegoating.

[Lt. Dan]

I grew up christian. I still go to church on Sundays,(If only to keep from having a fight about it with my mom) I do believe there is something out there, just something that I my self have to find. When the church can fix itself, maybe I'll start going again but for now, I'll try to find my own way.

The church has, however, giving me things to live by. Almost all the rules I set for myself are based on what I was taught there. So, good things do come out of it, but they think that because of this that it's ok to force it on to other people.

[Frank_Scenario]

Religion at best, is a maladaptive quality of culture. It encourages weakness, humility, and it's intellecually dangerous for society. It also tends to produce lack of responsibility and scapegoating.

Would you mind clarifying? You say religion is maladaptive; however, it seems that religion itself, and religious individuals, not only survive but prosper. The omnipresence of religion in human societies also suggests that religion has been largely beneficial.

I'd also like to see some evidence that religion encourages the negative qualities you discuss, or at least that it encourages them to a greater extent than, say, nationalism, conservatism, or any other system of belief. It's also worth asking what you mean by "religion" writ large; is scapegoating (for example) intrinsic to religion, or is it something that some sects are given to?

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Would you mind clarifying? You say religion is maladaptive; however, it seems that religion itself, and religious individuals, not only survive but prosper. The omnipresence of religion in human societies also suggests that religion has been largely beneficial.

I'd also like to see some evidence that religion encourages the negative qualities you discuss, or at least that it encourages them to a greater extent than, say, nationalism, conservatism, or any other system of belief. It's also worth asking what you mean by "religion" writ large; is scapegoating (for example) intrinsic to religion, or is it something that some sects are given to?

Madaptive cultural ideas tend to promote violence, irrepsonsibility, lack of respect, justice, and functionality. The way things are going, and with the religious zealot right, and with active attempts to usurp the secular state and indoctrinate instead of educate, religion is quite harmful to a non-primitive level society. It's high time people shed such silly, childish beliefs. THey seem quite low on the Kohlberg totem pole.

1. People take God seriously, they act in it's defense like a mother would her baby. SOmeone criticises it, they see it as "persecution." if someone says it's stupid, they freak out. In fact, people die as a result of it. Take the 12 gauge shotgun example that someone posted earlier. Belief in a fake being should never cause so much destruction, death, and hate. If it does, it's maladaptive.

Religion might not directly tell pepole to go out and blow someone's head off, but they do it in the name of the religion, and that's all that matters. People obviously cannot tell the difference between fantasy and reality. They are indoctrinated to protect their religious. SOme peopel are worse than others, but it only encourages this behaviour by making people blind. Youmight as well go out and kill people because of Harry Potter books, but people can recognize that Potter = fantasy, somsething they can't do with Religion, since it's seen as real. Unlike TV, movies, and games, REligion is seen as real and serious. I don't see people running around killing people because they don't like starwars or harry potter.

As well, Religion actively tries to corrupt education. There are many examplesof that in Penn, Kansas, Texas, Ohio.
Religious RIght nutcases try to usurp the government and education (pat roberston, Buchanon, etc). Just look at the American government now. It's pisspoor.

People fight wars over this shit, people take biblical morality seriously, even though it's perverted, twisted.

The omnipresence of religion in human societies also suggests that religion has been largely beneficial.

That just shows people are really really guillible. Just because it's there, doesn't mean it's good. Not all bad traits die off. People are trained to need religion because it's a crutch. It' has, for generations, been used by the government as a means to control it's people as described by Napoleon and Nietzsche. It's not beneficial, it's justmaking people morons, drones, and zombies who cannot think for themselves or make rational decisions. Fuck, even the damn boyscout agenda has been courrupted by this thing called religion.

People who believe in magical beings despite hard core evidence of the contrary are irrational beings and they clearly show they cannot be counted on to make rational decisions or be trusted. They are a detriment to intellectual society, especially since 45% of people actually believe in the literal bible, according to Wong's site. That, sir, is a disgrace. Through it's teachings, the Bible encourages this mindlessness, this arrogant shit. It's almost disgusting what is happening to society in the name of "moral and educational" values.

They actively use ancient worthless texts to justify stripping people of their rights decided upon by the UN declaration of human rights, but so long as it's a sin, fuck the people, despite having no rational backing behind the belief.

I am god damn tired of fucking moronic preachers on TV going around swindling people out of their money with collection plates, as well. Someone needs to stop them from exploiting the hopes of people.

I'd also like to see some evidence that religion encourages the negative qualities you discuss, or at least that it encourages them to a greater extent than, say, nationalism, conservatism, or any other system of belief.

Never said it does it any MORE. I said it does it, and the world would be better off without yet another source of bs. morality, subjectivity, and poor education. Religion is one thing that actively tries to destroy education, enforce antiquated, brutal moral systems, and engage in mind-colonization. People can't think for themselves when t hey take religion seriously,and If i gave you ever possible example of why, you would go batty reading them all.

It's also worth asking what you mean by "religion" writ large; is scapegoating (for example) intrinsic to religion, or is it something that some sects are given to?

No. Scapegoating isn't Religion or Christianity specific, but it is easly used as such, and people actually think it's justified because "God said to do it." They aren't crazy, they are believers. I just read how pat Roberston wanted to create a unique "christian" court system to try believers who were "contacted" by god. These fuckers are insane, and they are getting their ideas from religion.

Again, I am not saying that REligion is the ONLy evil in society, but it is an evil in society, and it's an evil built on nonsense and fantasy. It's not even a necessary and real evil. It's stupid like the Easter Bunny. When pepole starting making foreign and domestic economic and social policy based on the Easter Bunny, then I will say that's fucking maladaptive too.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Umm. Sorry for the nonsensical shit i posted. It's out of order, makes no sense, and isn't spelled correctly. I am tired. I was over a friends house and I got no sleep, so I can't concentrate.

[Morilore]

Religion begins when people are so desparate for an answer to an unanswerable question that they become willing to literally make shit up to fill that void. The ancients made sacrifices and chants because they knew of no other possible method by which they might prevent a plague or a storm or a drought from unceremoniously and indiscriminately slaughtering them all. The medievals prayed and meditated because they knew of no real-world answer to the injustice and immorality of practical society. Fundies dance and chant to exuberant praise music because they need a balm for their existential despair. Of course, after a while, this stuff becomes self-perpetuating, so that people without these problems participate in these rituals only because they have been socialized to believe that the conservative doctrine is good and deviation is bad.
For the longest time when I was a Christian, I engaged in tortured circular reasonings to justify the existence of God, but the way I REALLY proved his existence to myself went like this: "If God doesn't exist or Christianity is false, then the world sucks ass. I don't want the world to suck ass, therefore, I think the world is good. Therefore, God exists." There are questions in the world the answers of which are so far ahead of us, or which require such radical reorganization of our societies, that the real answer seems forever beyond us, and we are forced to rely on faith to save us from apparently immutable uncomfortable truths.

However, as has been demonstrated many times before, many (maybe even all?) of these questions are, indeed, answerable by human effort. Ancient people discovered how to produce agricultural surplus, which bypassed the need for every single harvest to be successful for a civilization to survive. The old religions lost their meaning, because the question they strove to answer mystically was answered more efficiently by reality. But this new reality had its own problems - social injustice, enslavement, stratification: and the answers to these were again so far ahead of us, that we needed a religion to prevent ourselves from descending into despair.

We are on the heels of a similar watershed today. Automation is poised, at least theoretically, to render the world (or parts of it) into complete meritocracies, where social stratification is not necessary and democracy and egalitarianism is practical. The old religions are being rendered irrelevant. Faith itself is being reduced to the core of its old value: assuring the meaning of human life, answering the question "why?" Maybe someday, we won't need religion to answer that, either. But until that time, I find it more profitable to focus on the questions that human activity can answer.