Aliens Federation offers mebership, at a price.

[brianeyci]

Do people truly think that the world would just sit down and do nothing and debate the alien's offer?

Do people realize that this is the end of human civilization? The end of independence?

I wonder if this op was inspired by a science ficiton story I read when I was a kid (not too long ago). The name of the author and the story escapes me right now so I'll paraphrase and hope the sci-fi prowress of SD.net remembers this little gem (I would like to reread it as well). What happens is aliens come to Earth and are appalled by the violence of Earthers. They cannot bring themselves to eradicate Earth because there are innocents. So they give every single human being on the planet a telephatic message, asking them whether they wanted eternal life in exchange of giving up their life on Earth. Almost everybody says yes, except for the progatonist.

However altruistic alien motives are, accepting their plan would mean the end of human civilization. Despite humanity's faults, it is our garbage pile and we should not be so quick to abandon it. How are we sure of the alien's motives? If they do not like religion, what else do they not like? Why is religion such a threat to them?

We would be under the alien thumb forever. Consider the implications. The future of humanity would be forever dictated by a foreign power. Humanity would no longer be independent to make its own decisions. We would be a puppet state. If you think the Vulcans are bad plot devices, Zor's aliens are the worst. No aliens would allow humanity the autonomy to make its own decisions after declaring certain segments of humanity "dangerous". We would be virtual slaves.

In the story I mentioned, a guy walks into the White House after law and order breaks down. Nobody is around since everybody is getting ready to ascend to the alien ship. He meets the President. The world leaders were informed before the general population with telepathy so the President knew. The guy asks the President why he didn't do something, warn humanity about giving up their freedom and their chance at achieving something themselves. I remember the President's reply being rather pathetic. If I was the President, I would have made an impassioned speech about the virtues of humanity, asking us not to so readily give up our civilization.

You give me eternal life in exchange of "ascending" to some alien being and giving up my way of life? No thank you. If aliens ever come and offer me eternal life in exchange for abandoning the way I live, I would seriously consider saying no.

I am truly surprised so many are willing to give up "freedom of religion" so easily. Once freedom of religion goes out the window, who's to say that freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and whatever else won't go either? Who's to say the aliens won't harvest our body parts?

Realistically -- the world says "Thanks, but no thanks." World wars? Give me a break. There's no way a sovereign nation would give up its own citizens to be "nerve stapled". If the aliens tried a "divide and conquer" strategy, well what is the fucking point, they could just nuke us. Whatever technology the aliens gave to one country for example, would come with the cavet that the technology could not be used for war. I can't see any state with a significant religious population abandoning its citizens like this.

Brian

[Melchior]

virtues of humanity

Such as?
Humanity, as whole, it isn't a good thing, we have:
-Greed
-Some more greed
-Mass stupidity
-A really bad distribuition of resources caused by greed
-Wars caused by stupidity and/or greed
-Even more greed
-More or less corrupted leaders

[spikenigma]

we would say no (and IMHO we should do)

I'm an atheist - my views are similar to Tommy J's. I believe that having to adjust various segments of our society in this way is not a federation but an occupation by proxy and rule.

What if one of the tenets for us joining this federation is for us all (every human being) to have neural implants which never malfunction?

So, that if anyone tries to murder or rape somebody else they are unable move for a short time as soon as they try - recieve a small mild electric shock...now while I find murder and rape completely unpalitable, I'd not bow to having the neural implant as that is subjugation...

[VT-16]

That isn´t what the OP is about, there are no neural implants involved. And I´m not pig-headed enough to go arguing with aliens that most likely could destroy the entire world if they wanted to. Start the insurgency if they move in and impose more conditions after the agreement.

[brianeyci]

Humanity, as whole, it isn't a good thing, we have:
-Greed
-Some more greed
-Mass stupidity
-A really bad distribuition of resources caused by greed
-Wars caused by stupidity and/or greed
-Even more greed
-More or less corrupted leaders

I could go on listing compassion, love, unrewarded sacrifice, and so on, but I won't. A better question is whether these aliens are any better, and why we should believe they are any better.

If an alien babe asked you to have sex with her in her spaceship, you'd be worried too. Zor's aliens are either plot-device Vulcans, or if they are to be treated as aliens with any degree of realism they must have some ulterior motive to break apart humanity like that.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Start the insurgency if they move in and impose more conditions after the agreement.

By then it will be too late, alien technology and aliens would have permeated human society and we would have given up our right to self governance.

Here's a solution. Ask the aliens if they are willing to give things like cure for cancer, fusion power, and so on without the FTL.

After all, how can religious zealots be a threat to them if we do not have FTL?

There you go. If the aliens reject this, then I would be very suspicious on what they consider "religious". For all you know they consider the entire United States Government religious because there's "In God we Trust" on the money. Who gets to decide who gets nerve stapled, them? No nation would give up its right to decide the fate of its own citizens, at least no Western democratic nation.

Brian

[Melchior]

I could go on listing compassion, love, unrewarded sacrifice, and so on, but I won't. A better question is whether these aliens are any better, and why we should believe they are any better.

Think of the proportions.
Oh, you are right about the aliens, but I was simply arguing aganist humanity, not trying to explanin why should aliens be better.

[Zor]

Brian, you realise they DONT...

A-Completly lack Religion (they do have a Patheon of gods that mingle with each other)
B-Have Plan on banning all religions, or Islam/Christianity completly

Zor

[Junghalli]

If it just comes down to establishing these restrictions of a few religions I would say join. The benefits are worth the sacrifice. If they actually wanted to ban monotheistic religions I would be more reluctant, but as I would still be able to practice my religion I don't find it unbearably objectionable.
But I have a bad feeling they're not going to stop there. They're bribing us in exchange for getting us to accept infringements on our freedom. Put a frog in a pot of boiling water and it'll jump out, but put it in a pot of warm water and gradually turn up the heat and it'll happily sit and cook. This is just to get us used to taking orders from them; they'll pile on more and more restrictions with time until one day we'll wake up and realize we're living in a totalitarian state. And by that time we'll be reliant on them to support our technological infrastructure and probably deeply in debt to them for helping build all those fusion plants. I'm not saying we should refuse, but we should be very careful what we sign on for.

[brianeyci]

Brian, you realise they DONT...

A-Completly lack Religion (they do have a Patheon of gods that mingle with each other)
B-Have Plan on banning all religions, or Islam/Christianity completly

Zor

So what, the distinction will be moot. An attack on Mecca will be called an attack on all of Islam. An attack certain churches will bring up freedom of religion and also be intepreted as an attack on all of Christianity. Their ban will be interpreted as an attack on all religion, whether or not they make certain distinctions.

The answer will definitely be a resounding no. More than anything, this will draw humanity together.

The idea that this would give the Athiests any reason to "fight" or start a world war is ridiculous. Never been a war in the name of athiesm, never will be.

If the aliens are truly worried about religions, let them not give us FTL drive and we'll stick to our planet with our cure to cancer, fusion power and so on, being no threat to the aliens. If they say no to this proposal, then there is definitely an ulterior motive on the part of the aliens.

Brian

[Exonerate]

Do people truly think that the world would just sit down and do nothing and debate the alien's offer?

Do people realize that this is the end of human civilization? The end of independence?

I'd prefer to see it as the beginning of human ascension.
[/quote]

However altruistic alien motives are, accepting their plan would mean the end of human civilization. Despite humanity's faults, it is our garbage pile and we should not be so quick to abandon it. How are we sure of the alien's motives? If they do not like religion, what else do they not like? Why is religion such a threat to them?

So end it and start a new one. What other motives would they have that would require such an elaborate plan? I'd assume that the aliens would be afraid that aggressive religion would spread and wreck havoc.

We would be under the alien thumb forever. Consider the implications. The future of humanity would be forever dictated by a foreign power. Humanity would no longer be independent to make its own decisions. We would be a puppet state. If you think the Vulcans are bad plot devices, Zor's aliens are the worst. No aliens would allow humanity the autonomy to make its own decisions after declaring certain segments of humanity "dangerous". We would be virtual slaves.

Not necessarily. Eventually we'd be on equal terms - for example, the Philippines. It took awhile, but eventually we gave them their independence.

You give me eternal life in exchange of "ascending" to some alien being and giving up my way of life? No thank you. If aliens ever come and offer me eternal life in exchange for abandoning the way I live, I would seriously consider saying no.

Well, your personal preference.

I am truly surprised so many are willing to give up "freedom of religion" so easily. Once freedom of religion goes out the window, who's to say that freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and whatever else won't go either? Who's to say the aliens won't harvest our body parts?

That sounds like a slippery hill... Freedom of religion isn't being abolished completely - limits are being placed on it. A similar comparison would be freedom of expression - you can't shout "Fire!" in a crowded building when there isn't one.

Realistically -- the world says "Thanks, but no thanks." World wars? Give me a break. There's no way a sovereign nation would give up its own citizens to be "nerve stapled". If the aliens tried a "divide and conquer" strategy, well what is the fucking point, they could just nuke us. Whatever technology the aliens gave to one country for example, would come with the cavet that the technology could not be used for war. I can't see any state with a significant religious population abandoning its citizens like this.

Brian

Yeah, you're probably right on this one. I'd ask for a personal contract with the aliens

[generator_g1]

I remember watching on TV about a story similar to the one Zor gave about the aliens coming to earth and offering pretty much the same stuff. They even had a book translated from their language entitled "To Serve Man" in which the global leaders took as an example of the aliens benevolence, understanding etc. and welcomed them in....

At the end of the story, it turned out that the book "To Serve Man" was actually the aliens cookbook!!

I think it was shown in the Twilight Zone or something........

[Molyneux]

I remember watching on TV about a story similar to the one Zor gave about the aliens coming to earth and offering pretty much the same stuff. They even had a book translated from their language entitled "To Serve Man" in which the global leaders took as an example of the aliens benevolence, understanding etc. and welcomed them in....

At the end of the story, it turned out that the book "To Serve Man" was actually the aliens cookbook!!

I think it was shown in the Twilight Zone or something........

Yes, that was an episode of the Twilight Zone. The aliens also had field within which combustion could not occur - no fire, no explosives, no guns or nuclear weapons. Great for getting rid of the arms race...also great for making sure that humanity would have no means of self-defense.


Personally, I'd tell the aliens to shove it (though not in so many words, of course). I tend to think that freedom of religion is a damn good thing, and any course of action which begins with the limiting of personal freedoms (including the right to privacy and right to control over oneself - nerve stapling!) will only lead to a bad end.

[sketerpot]

I hope that not all of humanity has to join up. I'm sure that some countries would join, and then those that steadfastly refuse to join will be left far behind. You think that the US and western Europe are going to want to become third world countries, relatively speaking?

Short term, I would move to one of the countries that joined and eventually everything would be alright, at least as far as I'm concerned. Bring on the aliens!

[Lord Pounder]

As good as this offer sounds it's not worth it. While i worship no god myself i respect other peoples right to worship whom and what they will. IMHO this puts unnecessary restrictions on organised religion.

My alternative would be to let the aliens move those willing to a new world where we can reap the benefits of being in the Alliance while the remainder retain their religious freedoms.

[Duckie]

I'd accept even if I was a Christian- the medical technology and me being a selfish bastard mix well

If the religious really want to stay and a war is about to break out, and the aliens really want humanity that bad, the relocation idea sounds good- ship anyone who wants to go to New Earth (if it has no wildlife start importing).

If I could guess on who of the religious would come, Religious Moderates with no connections to their Fundamentalist brethren will bristle at the "Attack on Christianity" but otherwise submit, and almost all the non-monotheists will obviously come along. Add along all the people who only are apathetically Christian because that's what they were born as and that gives a pretty neat piece of the pie.

As an added condition, Fundamentalist Earth on no circumstances is allowed to develop armed starships or faster-than-light travel under penalty of utter destruction, but otherwise is an autonomous world. Maybe veil that condition is a bit less blunt terms to avoid rebellion, on second thought.

[Sharpshooter]

A) We most definetily should join, but only after thorough negotiations with the alien federation in order to minimalize the potential damage the restrictions would cause.

While I understand their worry about the development of hostile circumstances due to the actions of a small sect of fundimentalist worshoppers, in banning the construction of ANY new church, requiring an entry fee for each time a person should wish to attend services, and banning any activity which might take place upon its grounds (bake sales and bingo? C'mon!) they are placing restrictions not only on those who actually Do represent a danger to them, but also upon those who have no quarrel whatsoever with the federation and those who may welcome it with open arms.

If restrictions are to be placed upon these religions which so worry them, let it be in the form of heavy regulation and monitoring of services. A system which is able to monitor church activities and detect potentially dangerous activity would alow the federation to strike at their true enemy while enabling those who are able to maintain corporal sense alongside their religious beliefs to continue their worship. Dealing with those who are borderline would be a more difficult task - while they aren't actually devoted to the point at which they would use violence and force as a means to fulfill their religion, the potential for such remains, and a pre-emptive strike against these people could prove disasterous if, in fact, they would have remained peaceful all along.

B) Most likely, there would be a high level of outcry in those areas in which religious fundimentalism is at high levels, with those with moderate and lower levels experiencing proportional levels. There would be created a high level of seperation as supporters of the federation and supporters of findimentalism form themselves into their respective clusters, and clashes between these two would likely become a regular occurance. National participation in negotiations and diplomacy with the federation would also waver, depending upon religious influence - in nations in which there is a high level, leaders would either remove themselves from events in support of their country's religious views, or political leaders and important figures may find themselves endangered by the more active and radical sects of these major fundimentalist groups.

Violence and attempts to control said violence will continue to rise, , and it may eventually come down to the point at which the alien federation will either withdraw itself completily and let humanity be as it was before, launch attacks against the Earth after seeing the high level of hostility created by their appearance and fearing the development of another fundimentalist force like that which attacked them before, or possibly allow for emmigration of those who wish to join the federation from Earth, leaving those who wish to retain their fundimentalist views without advancement and under extreme scrutiny.

C) Somewhat already stated. If the shit does indeed hit the fan, and the federation decides to withdraw, I'm going to do my damndest to see if I and any others who wish to do so can emmigrate with them - as much as I love Earth and many of its qualities, I will not allow this golden chance to be taken from me and others who wish to comply.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

That one is strict restrictions on Islam and most of Christianity.

What about Judaism?

They have made some cossetions, the Canadian United Church is allowed to stay predominatly the same,

First, check your spelling. Second, what's so special about the Canadian United Church's values?

but other Prodestant, Orthodox and Catholic Churches are to be heavily restricted (it will now cost $25 in Tax to go to Church, no new churches may be built (they may be rebuilt if they are destroyed)

Sounds reasonable. It is time to slowly wean humans away from religion. That would allow them some freedom to go and adjust.

no more Bingo nights

No idea what those are, but I suppose you can just assemble together and do the non-religious part of what you do on those elsewhere.

and no more Religious Schools, also say goodby to "In God we Trust")

About bloody time.

and the Bapthist church (as well as Jehovah's witnesses and other sects like them) is to be outlawed entirely.

So we are squelching fundies hard and fast...

Mecca is to be turned into a Federation Run Museam

Why Mecca? If you are doing that, you might as well crush Islam outright. What's offending about that place beyond the fact it is a place important to Islamics in general?

They offer us a 20 year period of transition to integrate us into there laws.

That's most of a generation.

Then they will begin "Purging", rounding up Jehovas' witnesses and other sects they have banned and Nerve Stapling them, completly Deleating there knowagde of there fromer Religion.

Would that destabilize those people? If religion is a huge part and pillar of those people's lives, yanking it away like that may unbalance those people (they might be fundies, but at least most of them ain't violently dangerous) and make them threats.

Also, what would they do if the Jehovahs stayed quiet and private. Would they stop at them not being an organized force anymore or are they going to exterminate them?

So three Questions
1-What should we do?

Yes.

2-what will we do?

Doubtful.

3-what do you say about it?

About bloody time for some points.

[The Third Man]

These annoyingly arrogant aliens remind me of that "shipfull of smug holograms" from Red Dwarf. My response would be the same as Lister's - pass me the Sturdy Holo-whip please.

[wautd]

If the costs are not too high (i couldnt care less for religion but I respect people who do - as long as they leave me alone anyway). I think i it would be wise to join anyway. Altough i'd like to know a bit more about this Federation first. Are they peacefull? Do they have enemies? Is there a hostile-to-all race lurking somewhere in space?

I wonder if it would be harder if it was the other way around: the aliens have a religion and we HAVE to convert to it to get all those perks

[Lucky Luke]

After I had read the first post, I had several thoughts.
I think we should not join to the Federation. I don't think that Aliens ar coming to the Earth but if it happens we won't join to the Federation.

We cannot be sure that their intention is good. If we accept the conditions we have to forbid practicing some religion. It will cause a civil war. In addition, there will be a confrontation with the muslims which will cause a world war. If we join to the Federation we have to face with the enemies of the Aliens.

The Viable Nuclear Fusion and Medical techology will be very beneficial. We will capable to develop some of the technology the aliens offer. I think we will able to develop the Viable Nuclear Fusion within 20 years.
Do you think that the Reconstructional Nanoprobes solve any problem or increase the population growth?

I'm not interested in what are the minor conditions because the big one is unacceptable.

Why is it beneficial to the Aliens if we join to the Federation?

[Duckie]

Why is it beneficial to the Aliens if we join to the Federation?

Sheer manpower? Maybe we're the only species stupid enough to keep breeding indescriminantly and have 7 million inhabitants.

Or perhaps more sinisterly Earth is just another planet they need to industrialize to gain a profit from and their sense of honor means they have to cut a deal.

That's the dealbreaker- these Aliens are surely not that altruistic just to give us stuff for membership.

Wait, if they're an economic federation, who do they trade with? There must be other aliens, some hostile, so maybe they need that sheer manpower I mentioned to hold railrifles and intercept projectiles...

[salm]

Yes, but you said people going to church should be taxed and no more churches could be built. That certainly is not freedom.

that´s how it´s handled here. in fact when i read Zor´s scenario i thought that he´s talking about a germany a bit extremer.

people in official churches are taxed, sects can be, depending on their acts, made illegal, hell we´ve even got the social democrats governing us. the fundies like the JW or crap like scientology are not recognized churches and can´t get the benefits that churches get.

churches are allowed to be built and there are religious schools, though.