Why is there no proof for psychokinesis

[WyrdNyrd]

In my own, personal, private opinion, there are Lizard People hiding among us, they just don't want us to know they exist. The only reason why there is absolutely no proof at all for this assertion, is that they're all very good at hiding.

Yeay, yeah, Mod -1, redundant/me-too. I'm just trying to get into the spirit of things on this BB...

[Stark]

WyrdNyrd I'm so glad to finally be believed! You can see the truth hidden by so many people by their irrational 'science'. When the lizard people raise their lord, great Cthulhu, all those who worship will be saved. They have a giant spacestation on the moon, but their god protects them from our profane sight.

Oh and noone ever detects the results of any lizard man activity ever, ever in recorded history ever, because they're so good at hiding. Otherwise, we would have seen them! Obviously.

[Darth Wong]

In my personal opinion, people who would have real powers either don't care about proving their powers, or wouldn't want to in order to keep the attention off of themselves and try to live a normal life.


Do they exist? I don't know.

That's retarded. If I had real psychokinetic powers, I'd be doing the talk-show circuit and the motivational speaker market, and I'd be so rich I'd be able to wipe my ass with hundred dollar bills.

[SirNitram]

I imagine that pesky equal-and-opposite reaction law of motion might impede mind-based telekinetics.

So if anyone's brains are in their shoes but their stereo looks like it was dropped when they investigate the homicide scene, we've had a psychokinetic.

[Melchior]

I imagine that pesky equal-and-opposite reaction law of motion might impede mind-based telekinetics.

So if anyone's brains are in their shoes but their stereo looks like it was dropped when they investigate the homicide scene, we've had a psychokinetic.

I might be wrong, but I don't think that thay believe that it is actually their physical brain to apply a force. (maybe they believe in something absurd like an "astral body")

[SirNitram]

I imagine that pesky equal-and-opposite reaction law of motion might impede mind-based telekinetics.

So if anyone's brains are in their shoes but their stereo looks like it was dropped when they investigate the homicide scene, we've had a psychokinetic.

I might be wrong, but I don't think that thay believe that it is actually their physical brain to apply a force. (maybe they believe in something absurd like an "astral body")

What they beleive is hardly a sound basis for discussing the reprecussions of something in actual scientific light.

[Melchior]

What they beleive is hardly a sound basis for discussing the reprecussions of something in actual scientific light.

Obviously.
But the problem with psychokinesis isn't in the fact that it could violate a law of motion, but in the utter absence of any proof of her existance.

[Lone_Prodigy]

But the problem with psychokinesis isn't in the fact that it could violate a law of motion, but in the utter absence of any proof of her existance.

The fact that it completely ignores Conservation of Momentum makes it impossible, to start off with. The lack of proof is bad, but the utter impossibility makes it even worse.

[SirNitram]

What they beleive is hardly a sound basis for discussing the reprecussions of something in actual scientific light.

Obviously.
But the problem with psychokinesis isn't in the fact that it could violate a law of motion, but in the utter absence of any proof of her existance.

P'raps you aren't quite up to snuff on reading comprehension. My comment was to make it clear that even if it could exist, it would be incredibly limited to avoid killing the user, if not impossible entirely. It is stunningly obvious there's a dearth of data, so why bring it up when it has nothing to do with what I said?

[SirNitram]

But the problem with psychokinesis isn't in the fact that it could violate a law of motion, but in the utter absence of any proof of her existance.

The fact that it completely ignores Conservation of Momentum makes it impossible, to start off with. The lack of proof is bad, but the utter impossibility makes it even worse.

Not impossible, persay. Just incredibly weak. But is there a practical difference between no PK and PK so weak it's near-impossible to seperate from simple statistical outliers?

[Melchior]

P'raps you aren't quite up to snuff on reading comprehension. My comment was to make it clear that even if it could exist, it would be incredibly limited to avoid killing the user, if not impossible entirely. It is stunningly obvious there's a dearth of data, so why bring it up when it has nothing to do with what I said?

I had understood that, I simply added that, before that could apply, there are worse problems.

[Darth Wong]

To be fair, one could levitate something like a playing card without creating enough reaction forces to cause a brain injury, so it's not as if you couldn't produce evidence for telekinesis without killing yourself ... if it were not a fantasy.

[John Chris]

I dunno. It probably doesn't violate physics provided it's your own energy that's being used in the production of telekinetic energy. Or am I just spewing crap here?

[buzz_knox]

IIRC, both the US and USSR did research into psychic abilities for use in espionage way back in the early bits of the cold war. They got a resounding 'negatory' for proof of their existence.

Actually, the project lasted until the end of the cold war and a bit beyond. And there were apparently some hits with the American "remote viewing" program that were interesting, but not necessarily quantifiable. Could have been luck or prior knowledge.

[buzz_knox]

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/stargate.htm

Some background on the subject.

[lPeregrine]

IIRC, both the US and USSR did research into psychic abilities for use in espionage way back in the early bits of the cold war. They got a resounding 'negatory' for proof of their existence.

Actually, the project lasted until the end of the cold war and a bit beyond. And there were apparently some hits with the American "remote viewing" program that were interesting, but not necessarily quantifiable. Could have been luck or prior knowledge.

Most likely luck and a case of seeing what you want to see in vague statements. It's a long and sacred tradition in prophecy and impossible information that you can always interpret things in the way that best fits what you want them to mean.

For example, lets say I "remote view" a description of "a large gray building". Now what are the odds of not being able to find something that matches my description? It doesn't matter if 20 years later you discover that there was a large gray building somewhere close enough to what I "saw", it's just a case of seeing what you want to see in the evidence.

[lPeregrine]

I dunno. It probably doesn't violate physics provided it's your own energy that's being used in the production of telekinetic energy. Or am I just spewing crap here?

It wouldn't violate conservation of energy at least. But there's also the problem of how is that energy converted from a person's supply of it into moving an object from a distance? I strongly suspect there's something in physics being violated there. At absolute best, it's something that has no explanation or support in physics.

[Lord Poe]

That's retarded. If I had real psychokinetic powers, I'd be doing the talk-show circuit and the motivational speaker market, and I'd be so rich I'd be able to wipe my ass with hundred dollar bills.

Would you use your hand, or your psychokinetic powers?

[General Zod]

That's retarded. If I had real psychokinetic powers, I'd be doing the talk-show circuit and the motivational speaker market, and I'd be so rich I'd be able to wipe my ass with hundred dollar bills.

imagine all the government agencies that would be after you in hopes of wanting to duplicate that power though. not to mention the various religious nutjobs who'd think you were the messiah or something.

fuck, if i had real telekinetic abilities, i'd keep it a secret and hit the casinos. i could make a slaying on the roulette wheel and slots.

[kaikatsu]

Ironically, I ended up thinking about this more than any rational person should as a result of science fiction in an RPG.

Emphasis on the fiction.

That being said, I think any sci fi that violates something like, oh say, conservation of energy and momentum needs a good beating. Now, let's turn our bullshit threshold up high and listen to possible workarounds.

Conservation of Energy: This one isn't too bad. If you have the energy to THROW something, you obviously have the chemical energy in your body. If this energy could be transported into a rock, you'd be fine. (Don't ask HOW it get's transfered. The government won't let me tell you. <Obligatory reference to area 51 or something>)

Anyway, if you allow a high enough bullshit level, the theoretical psychic could draw energy from ANYTHING. (Matter to energy reactions from the surrounding air? Sure, why not? <Insert refernece to "quantum foam" and "studies showing people can alter probability" with no reference>)

Conservation of Momentum: AKA -- Action/Reaction. No reason to assume that a person's brain would get damaged by the reaction force. For one, most "damage" is done by sheering or compression, essentially any kind of force differential. If the TK could ensure that the momentum kickback was applied to ALL of his body at once, there would be no damage experienced -- so long as the person didn't get thrown back hard into something. (The situation would be analagous to having an enormous force of gravity applied, but to also be in free fall.)

Alternately a theoretical TK could transfer momentum into the ground. This ISN'T much of a stretch when you think about it -- they're already transfering momentum into a flying object, why not balance this by transfering the equal and opposite momentum into the planet Earth? It's not as if the Earth would change appreciateably.

So -- in the end -- what's violated in physics thanks to TK? Nothing, technically. You can BS your way around the conservation laws without too much of a hastle.

Of course, there's just absolutely no known phenomina that lets force transfer happen at that distance, that controlled, and that consistantly. Being in line with the conservation laws does not a scientific proof make!

[sketerpot]

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/stargate.htm

Some background on the subject.

From that page, one of the "successes":

In 1974 one remote viewer appeared to have correctly described an airfield with a large gantry and crane at one end of the field. The airfield at the given map coordinates was the Soviet nuclear testing area at Semipalatinsk -- a possible underground nuclear testing site [PNUTS]. In general, however, most of the receiver's data were incorrect or could not be evaluated.

Looks like the classic shotgun prediction approach: make a lot of guesses and hope that a few turn out right and let the rest be forgotten by the overly credulous.

[General Zod]

Ironically, I ended up thinking about this more than any rational person should as a result of science fiction in an RPG.

Emphasis on the fiction.

That being said, I think any sci fi that violates something like, oh say, conservation of energy and momentum needs a good beating. Now, let's turn our bullshit threshold up high and listen to possible workarounds.

you do realize that the vast majority of science fiction that incorporates some type of faster than light drives violates these, correct?

[Trekdestroyer]

Make a killing in every casino in Las Vegas and every casino on indian land till I am so rich I am swimming in dollar bills and burn dimonds in my fireplace.

Actualy I probably would keep them secret because the government wouldd put me in a laboratory and put an electrode on my balls and underarms.

[SirNitram]

I suppose if one had

1)both Wilsons Disease and Hemachromatosis,

2) and a random mutation which let the two metals flowing through your system move, coincidentally, like an electromagnet,

3) And enough of a metabolism to feed the system,

4) Some means of directing the whole thing,

You could have telekinetics. Or magnetokinetics. But you'd die at age 40 because you can't treat the two above conditions or the magnet switches off. ANd you go quite mad by then.

So it's probably a good thing it doesn't exist; we'd be dealing with magnetic nutbags.