13 things that do not make sense

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Thinkmarble
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Post by Thinkmarble »

Star-Blighter wrote: So in other words the universe has always existed in one state or another but
the "reality" that is the universe as WE know it has not always existed?

I've got a headache. :?
As I understand it the Universe has existed for 14 billion years and it is not possible to speak of a before.
It has existed forever, and this forever is 14 billion years long.
That is according to the general theory of gravity.
Problem is that at/for a short time after the big bang quantum effects are important, so that when we develop a quantum theory of gravity this may change.


There are actually people who work on the question what as before the big bang in a classical frame work.
I encountered an interesting paper by the people from the university of chicago trying to kill two things with one stone.
Spontaneous Inflation and the Origin of the Arrow of time, Sean M. Carroll, Jennifer Chen
You can get it at the arXiv.
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CaptainChewbacca
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

What about multiple big bangs/multiple universes?
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Thinkmarble
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Post by Thinkmarble »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:What about multiple big bangs/multiple universes?
No experimental evidence for them.
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Justforfun000
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Post by Justforfun000 »

Kuroneko's Response to me:

<snip>

:shock:

:shock:

:shock:

Jesus Christ. I hope you aren't a science teacher. lol. :lol:

No I'm kidding, I appreciate the explanation but it's WAY over my head. You're talking to a layman who hasn't really studied serious science since high school. Ha. If you call THAT serious science. I have a good head on my shoulders, but your references are far too knowledge specific for me to follow you. I can tell by reading it that it makes sense, but I would need to learn things like Newton's shell theorem and Schwarzschild metric before I can really grasp what you're explaining to me.

I should have known that asking a question about the biggest mysteries of the universe are not going to be simple. If I want that I can ask a priest. :wink:

Thanks though.
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Rye
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Post by Rye »

I don't really see the problem with time only having existed for however many billion years, I just think of it like time being a video tape, you rewind it to the beginning and there's no more tape further back. Just a point where time and space and anything else would become a net zero dimensional product. A singularity, that was fundamentally either unstable or had a virtual particle style property where it could borrow energy from the future in order to create things or otherwise somehow result in expansion.

So my idea, though I'm not a physicist or anything, and I don't know if it's been proposed and shot down or whatever, is that the universe borrowed energy from the smallest amount of its own future which then had to exist in order for it to borrow said energy. Anf from there we get an endlessly expanding universe that presistantly borrows from its own future, which forces it to expand more as that future then has to exist.

Well, I thought it was a cool idea. :P
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Post by Kuroneko »

Firstly, one needs to realize that the Big Bang is simple the time-reversal gravitational collapse, so understanding the Big Bang becomes much easier if one understands gravitational collapse.
Justforfun000 wrote:I appreciate the explanation but it's WAY over my head. You're talking to a layman who hasn't really studied serious science since high school. Ha. If you call THAT serious science. I have a good head on my shoulders, but your references are far too knowledge specific for me to follow you. I can tell by reading it that it makes sense, but I would need to learn things like Newton's shell theorem and Schwarzschild metric before I can really grasp what you're explaining to me.
The core idea is actually very simple: imagine a ball of neutral matter with spherically symmetric mass distrubution (or completely uniform density, if you are unsure of that means) initially at rest. If pressure effects are negligible compared to gravity, as it easily can be on the scale of the galaxies much less the universe [1], then this ball will collapse to a point-like mass in finite time. That's pretty much it; the hard part is extending this trivial observation that to the rest of the universe. [1: As an example, supermassive black holes have extremely low densities as measured by their event horizon volume, and once this critical density is reached, absolutely nothing will stop further collapse to singularity. This critical density can be made arbitrarily small by having a more massive but larger ball of matter, and less density means less pressure.]

Newton's shell theorem states that the a shell of matter with a spherically symmetric matter distibution produces no gravity inside of it, and the gravity induced by this shell to an external particle is that of a point-mass, as if all the mass was concentrated at its center. This enables us, for example, to treat the planets as point-masses to and still produce highly precise predictions in orbital mechanics. Now, imagine an infinite universe with a uniform matter distribution (again, this is actually a good approximation on the supergalactic scale), every point with the same mass density, and pick a small ball of matter about some center. One can partition the rest of the matter in the universe into concentric shells around this ball, and by Newton's shell theorem, the gravity induced by each shell on the center-point is zero, and hence the net gravity on it is zero. In one dimension, the picture is simple:
<-------(-+-)------->
The (-+-) represents the imaginary ball of matter about some center +, the gravity due to the matter located some particular distance to the right being cancelled out by the gravity due to the same distance to the left. Hence, there is no net gravity acting on the ball; it is left alone to collapse on its own. As above, it collapses to infinite density in finite time.

The key step is this: in an infinite universe with uniform (or nearly so) density of matter, any point whatsoever can be picked as the center of the imaginary ball. At every point, an observer would see the surrounding mass density increase to infinity in finite time. Since at every location, and observer would see it as the center, the whole concept of 'center of the universe' loses meaning. Another point of view to observe that the ball still attracts the rest of the matter of the universe, so leaving its boundaries alone, it will gain density because surrounding matter flows into it. That is the picture in my previous post, but the above it slightly simpler, even though the two views are completely equivalent.

The previously mentioned result of Birkhoff's theorem is like a general-relativisic analogue of Newton's shell theorem in that spherical distributions produce a metric that is externally conformal to the Schwarzschild metric and completely flat internally. One doesn't need to know the exact details except that the fact that under the Schwarzschild metric, the radial freefall that we are interested in (toward the center of the imaginary ball) is exactly Newtonian in proper time--in other words, as measured by a particle falling to the center of the ball, the time it takes to reach it is exactly what Newtonian gravity predicts. Big Bang cosmologies are usually studied using the Friedmann-Robertson-Walker metrics, but perhaps suprisingly to many, the mechanics of collapse are exactly the same as for the so-called 'Newtonian cosmology'. The only difference is that the formation of the all-pervasive singularity prevents us from talking about anything prior in any physically meaningful sense, and of course in the case of the closed (finite) universe there is a vast difference in interpretation.
Rye wrote:A singularity, that was fundamentally either unstable or had a virtual particle style property where it could borrow energy from the future in order to create things or otherwise somehow result in expansion. ... So my idea, though I'm not a physicist or anything, and I don't know if it's been proposed and shot down or whatever, is that the universe borrowed energy from the smallest amount of its own future which then had to exist in order for it to borrow said energy. Anf from there we get an endlessly expanding universe that presistantly borrows from its own future, which forces it to expand more as that future then has to exist.
The problem with describing the singularity as unstable is that the idea of being 'unstable' in the physical sense requires the concept of time, in as much as it is the tendency to become something else. The overall idea of the universe being a vacuum fluctuation has actually been explored, although prior to inflation theory, rather ignored. Understandably so, since vacuum fluctuation of such size are so unlikely as to be virtually meaningless. It is possible to interpet relativistic gravitational fields as having energy in the form of spacetime curvature, and this can be negative. There is a theorem somewhere (unfortunately, I cannot recall the details) that states that a closed universe has zero net energy. There is no real borrowing involved here; it's more separating a zero into the sum of positive and negative, so conservation of energy is preserved at every point in time. Inflation theory is really a runaway reaction for this kind of conversion. There are versions of inflation that produce open universes (er, negligibly open, since inflation forces flatness), but I'm not familiar with the details.
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Post by Pick »

Kuroneko, I'm still a newbie, but I am still held in absolute awe every time that you post. ... just thought I'd say that. :oops:
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Justforfun000
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Post by Justforfun000 »

Kuroneko, I'm still a newbie, but I am still held in absolute awe every time that you post. ... just thought I'd say that.
No kidding. I salute the man for his incredible knowledge. It strains the brain to attempt full understanding of his posts, but it's worth the effort. :P
You have to realize that most Christian "moral values" behaviour is not really about "protecting" anyone; it's about their desire to send a continual stream of messages of condemnation towards people whose existence offends them. - Darth Wong alias Mike Wong

"There is nothing wrong with being ignorant. However, there is something very wrong with not choosing to exchange ignorance for knowledge when the opportunity presents itself."
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Post by wautd »

A wee bit too heavy for a monday morning :P
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Post by wautd »

#14:
The Autobots were mostly cars at first, with their leader, and only the greatest cartoon hero of all time Optimus Prime transforming into a big ass mack truck. Complete with the trailer which would come, sometimes, from absolutely nowhere. I swear to God, Optimus Prime would be standing in the middle of the Sahara Desert with only sand visible for miles on end, and then he'd transform into the truck cab, and the trailer would come rolling up from I don't know where. That's still one of the greatest mysteries in life.
;)


from here (as someone posted in another topic today)
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Post by Nick Lancaster »

In a moment of shameless namedropping, I know Dan Wertheimer - he's a good friend of a former college instructor/planetarium co-worker, as well as the brother-in-law of my high-school physics instructor. (This isn't to say he knows who I am or that we talk about deep cosmological matters every Tuesday.)

Note how NS takes quotes and positions them to support their WAGs about how the universe works or doesn't work?

As for the temperature of the universe thing, note how the NS goes from 'if it can't be explained, it can't be right' ... yet then runs their mouth on things like homeopathy and MysteryScience, ignoring the fact that these 'exciting developments' are also light in the explanation department.
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Post by kheegster »

Thinkmarble wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:What about multiple big bangs/multiple universes?
No experimental evidence for them.
It's part of the mathematical solution for a closed-Universe in the Friedmann equation, but no, there's no experimental universe.
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kheegster
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Post by kheegster »

Batman wrote:Okay, I'm propably once more missing something obvious here but from where I stand we have no clue wether or not the background temperature is homogenous or not. All we can tell is that the background temperature in an area 15 millions ly away 15 million years ago is the same as in an area 3 million ly away 3 million years ago is the same as in an area 2 billion ly away 2 billion years ago...
We can measure the cosmic microwave background which can be seen in the entire sky, and it's extremely homogeneous. The CMB is the last-scattering surface of the original Big Bang, btw...it's something that would be measured to be the same from every single point in the Universe at our present epoch.
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Post by kheegster »

Anyway, New Scientist is the closest you get to a scientific tabloid. I try not to read it if I can help it.
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Post by Kuroneko »

kheegan wrote:It's part of the mathematical solution for a closed-Universe in the Friedmann equation, but no, there's no experimental universe.
Since this involves taking the equation seriously before and after the singularity condition, it is unjustifiable even theoretically.
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