How many volts does it take to stun vs. kill?

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2005-04-19 01:34am

Ok, we have a former student that's stalking her, a single guy whose groped her in public, and a student that's been abusing his Girlfriend, whom she's trying to help out (the female student), she's a high school teacher, with very many scary boys, but nothing that would require lethal force your suggesting.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2005-04-19 09:31am

To be honestly, Z, you might pick up pepper spray, but that won't stop an attacked a good percentage of the time. Likewise, a stun gun can be lethal or non-effective depending on the person. A high calibre gun will stop someone, but I know you wouldn't want to seriously hurt somebody, just make them stop.

Your best bet is to go with self-defense classes. Chances are the built of the moves you learn in their won't be much help in the case of a real attack unless you practice for years, but they will give something even more important: awareness and confidance. Hopefully that will allow you to not lock up in the case of an attack. Then you scream at the top of your lungs and try to do one of the two basically sure fire ways to stop a man. Thumb to the eye or strike him as hard as you can in the groin. Going for the eyes are better, since he'll reflexively let you go to protect them, which gives you some shot to get away, but 95% of the time, a swift hit to the groin will stop a man. And don't stop screaming, before during and afterwards until you know that your safe.

Jaepheth · Post by **Jaepheth** » 2005-04-19 09:56am

A low caliber gun w/ hollow point could make them think twice without being too deadly...

Or you could use a blow gun, and then tell them to stop attacking you or you won't tell the hospital what the antidote is

Faram · Post by **Faram** » 2005-04-19 09:59am

Gil Hamilton wrote:but 95% of the time, a swift hit to the groin will stop a man. And don't stop screaming, before during and afterwards until you know that your safe.

A kick to the groin is easy to miss, but better than nothing.

The last time I got into a fight I kicked the cardoor so it hit his legs while climbing out. And then I run.

Use whatever aid you can and if you are overpowered grab a ear and pull really hard.

Strangleholds can be broken with a upwardsmotion with both arms.

If grabbed from behind lift your legs and shift the weight backwards.

Just do not ever give up or stop screaming.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-04-19 10:10am

I'm not sure where you guys are getting your pepper spray figures from but it's effective enough that its issued to police forces world wide. I'd recommend pepper spray backed up by a self defense class or a martial art of some sort. But realistically the pepper spray is probably going to be enough, you can even get ones with a really loud rape alarm on them. So if the spray doesn't do it, the air horn sounding alarm should scare the fucker off.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2005-04-19 10:21am

and make the Self defense Akido, Judo, or Wing Chung/Deet Kwon Do

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-04-19 10:24am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:and make the Self defense Akido, Judo, or Wing Chung/Deet Kwon Do

Well the only self-defense/martial-art I'm familiar with is Ninjitsu and what the CF teaches in HtH combat. But whatever she takes must be easy to learn, practical and must become second nature. It's also got to cover topics such as spotting ambush points.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2005-04-19 11:09am

well wing chung which bruce lee's jeet is partially based on, was originally designed as a martial art that would be easier for women to use and learn.

Actually the original Wing Chung master was a woman who just wanted to protect herself and her fellow women villagers from raping bandits.

Ravengrim · Post by **Ravengrim** » 2005-04-19 11:49am

Well, a stalker and an abusive boyfriend both warrant a handgun in my opinion, but whatever, to each his own. As far as martial arts, Z, I would seriously recommend Krav Maga. It is designed to put your opponent down, but not necessarily permanently, in a very short amount of time. The founder had a philosophy that a martial art that cannot be learned and used immediately is useless and I whole-heartedly agree with that. You take Karate or Wang-Chung or whatever and hope that you dont get attacked in the months it will take you to learn even basic self defense, or you can take a single Krav Maga or Systema class and feel more confident about protecting yourself after the first class. However, if you are for some reason intent on an Oriental martial art, try to find a more progressive teacher who will teach actual self defense rather than meditation.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2005-04-19 08:11pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:I'm not sure where you guys are getting your pepper spray figures from but it's effective enough that its issued to police forces world wide.

Police generally use Mace, which is a synthetic chemical. It is also illegal to have in most US states and many other countries (as is pepper spray in a much lesser number of places). Pepper spray is meanwhile based on capsaicin, which literally comes from things like peppers and chilies. It is far less effective then Mace. Pepper spray also comes in a range of compositions, the most powerful of which are only sold to those law enforcement agencies, which do use it. The off the shelf stuff civilians are going to be buying is much less potent.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2005-04-19 08:21pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Police generally use Mace, which is a synthetic chemical. It is also illegal to have in most US states and many other countries (as is pepper spray in a much lesser number of places). Pepper spray is meanwhile based on capsaicin, which literally comes from things like peppers and chilies. It is far less effective then Mace. Pepper spray also comes in a range of compositions, the most powerful of which are only sold to those law enforcement agencies, which do use it. The off the shelf stuff civilians are going to be buying is much less potent.

OK, but are there any hard figures on pepper spray effectiveness? All I've seen so far is vague statements that it is not effective in all cases, which is obvious, hell I've seen guys walk into a hut filled with CS gas and be unaffected so there is always a subset of the population that will be unaffected by a certain chemical. But I'd like to see some figures before we dismiss Pepper spray as inappropriate for her needs.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2005-04-19 08:57pm

The main problem I have with pepperspray and mace is blowback. If the wind is against you it's all too easy to end up spraying yourself. This is why with most police forces the trainees will have to get sprayed with whatever spray they carry so they know how it feels and how to react in case they accidentally get sprayed. If you're going to carry it, have a friend spray you with it first so you know what it's like, that way if you get blowback in the real world you have a better idea of its effects and how to deal with it.

As for practical options, practice awareness. Learn to see what's going on around you without making it obvious that you're scanning. Move with confidence and project a positive body language, head up, look awake & alert. Wherever you go, walk and move like you belong there. Next, Krav Maga or any of the military based combatives. Easy to learn & retain the skills, and quite effective.

Know and recognize that everything has limitations, and know where those limits are. Too many people fall into the "magic bullet" trap where they think that if they have so & such gadget they are safe. That's a trap that gets them killed.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2005-04-20 01:10am

What martial arts would be good to train in? Not just for Z, but I'm looking to get fitter again. Any ideas?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-04-20 01:26am

Z, my two cents;

Any good defense is layered. First and formost, situational awarness. Your a smart lady, keep out of the fire.

As for one uber non lethal weapon, get three or four. The right tool for the right job comes to mind. Someone mentioned rape whistel, mace/pepperspray, and a good knife.

That was good advice. I know they sell keyring mace/pepper dispensers. They also have all manner of small inconspicuous knives, some that go on a key ring as well. Along with a nice hard bat or batton that fits in your purse/gymbag/backpack, backseat of the Z-mobile.

Elevation in Force has more to do with threat assesment, and since I don't know anything about your situation, I really can't advise too much. But make a plan, layers and layers. Cover the most obvious situations.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2005-04-20 01:32am

I mentioned the 170db rape horn.

which was part of my mom's kit during the 1970's:
1. Rape horn
2. club or swinging weapon (including bike chains in her purse)
3. small purse gun
4. more keys then she actually used

of course my mom still hustles ex-military types at shooting ranges....

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2005-04-20 01:34am

The Yosemite Bear wrote:I mentioned the 170db rape horn.

which was part of my mom's kit during the 1970's:
1. Rape horn
2. club or swinging weapon (including bike chains in her purse)
3. small purse gun
4. more keys then she actually used

of course my mom still hustles ex-military types at shooting ranges....

Good point, lots of noise to make others aware of what's happening.

Ravengrim · Post by **Ravengrim** » 2005-04-20 11:04am

Stofsk wrote:What martial arts would be good to train in? Not just for Z, but I'm looking to get fitter again. Any ideas?

Well what are you looking to do? Do you want to just defenf yourself and be done with it, or are you looking for something that is more spiritual? I have mentioned a few really good quick-n-dirty ones, but if I were to take a Oriental martial art I would probably go with Tai Chi. It is very spiritual and inward-looking, in addition to being very effective physically.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2005-04-20 11:51am

I took TKD

I suggest Judo or Jeet (good physical discipline, and for Ms. Z.'s case address tactics early and directly for dealing with much bigger folks)

(you wouldn't believe the hell I went through to post this)

General Brock · Post by **General Brock** » 2005-04-21 04:31am

Stofsk Wrote:

What martial arts would be good to train in? Not just for Z, but I'm looking to get fitter again. Any ideas?

Fencing. It is not a martial art, but a combative art based on the honour duel. I would recommend sport fencing, foil to start, at the recreational level. There are also 'classical' fencers, who train with the weapon from a martial arts perspective, and include grappling and multiple opponent training.

Be more careful around pure sport clubs; if they won't take you seriously because you don't have time to compete, they are no fun at all. Most clubs tend to aim for a healthy mix of serious competitors and feeder fencers. Look for a good teacher; a good club will have at least one good coach and a few students you can train with rather than against.

If you are not in good shape to begin with, the moves are adjustable; you can break yourself in at your own pace. You learn coodination and how to think and move at the same time. I think you might find the tactical components interesting, but if you can get a partner who's game, you can still swordfight.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2005-04-21 07:30am

Self defence gadget numero uno: Shoes you can run in+fitness.

Let's face it, these puppies have saved more lives than pepper sprays, guns, knives and tasers combined.
This is no joke either.

-Gunhead

Symmetry · Post by **Symmetry** » 2005-04-23 09:35pm

The Yosemite Bear wrote:and make the Self defense Akido, Judo, or Wing Chung/Deet Kwon Do

Those are all good, but I personally I'd recomend Hupkido. Its a "soft" style like Akido or Judo in that it realies primarily on precision and knowledge of pressure points and leverage rather than power to achieve its affect, but it tends to be more focused and practical than Akido or traditional Judo (as opposed to, say, American Jujitsu).

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2005-04-23 10:05pm

very nice

I wonder why this thread has spawned all of us Martial ARts hijackers....

still AIR HORN

bark is much more efficiencnt then bite, oh and speaking of bite, do be afraid of natural weapons if some guy tries to molest you in public ok...

you have claws and teeth for a reason.