The Church Strikes Back (Science, I am your father...)

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2005-05-03 02:09pm

Well, we know that we killed millions of them, and that that's when we learned about the arabic numeric system. Is it a coincidence? And the binary system is quite different.. it's a much more basic code, with only two digits. To discover something similar or the same independantly doesn't take much skill. However, creating a base-10 math system with 10 digits that are exactly the same as a different place that you just happened to go through while killing thousands of people so that a bunch of nuts could have a holy land and doing it all at the same time is just a bit much for me to call coincidence. But what do you think?

Damn me and my run-on sentinces...

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2005-05-03 02:25pm

We also stole their medical advancements, yes? No possible way that doctors from Europe could have learned from Muslim doctors.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2005-05-03 03:41pm

Zero132132 wrote:I know that there was a painting of mary with a thingy draped over her shoulder that stated that Muhammad was the prophet.. does that count as something stolen? I couldn't probably back that claim up if asked, anyways, so it doesn't matter... If you mean pure intellectual stuff, then I guess I can't prove it at all, but you gotta figure it's quite a coincidence in timing that europe all of a sudden 'rediscovered' all of this knowledge just as they attack people who have it. And we are, at the least, SURE that we stole the arabic numeral system, and algebra. Or maybe we invented the same system of numbers independent from them.. yeah, that's gotta be it.
Either way, SOMETHING had to act as a catalyst before something like the renassaince could occur, although it may have simply been that men were actually displaced from their homes for a time, and gained a concept of a larger world then the one they knew... but I find it easier to believe that they jacked a ton of ideas from the middle eastern folks. I know I would have.

Thing is, there's hundreds of years between the Crusades and Renaiscance; if Arab advancements had been stolen during the Crusades they would have appeared in use in Europe around the same time.
The Hindu-Arabic numeral system didn't gain widespread acceptance in Europe until the mid 1500's, for instance, and that was due to the use of it by the printing press as much as anything else. It had been known in parts of Europe as early as the 900's.
That Muslim scholarship preserved Classical knowledge beyond the west, and that they were light years in advance over the west due to their own achievements is not in doubt.
That "stealing" these achievements is what spurred the Renaisance is.
The dates simply don't sync up.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2005-05-03 03:42pm

Zero132132 wrote:I know that there was a painting of mary with a thingy draped over her shoulder that stated that Muhammad was the prophet.. does that count as something stolen? I couldn't probably back that claim up if asked, anyways, so it doesn't matter... If you mean pure intellectual stuff, then I guess I can't prove it at all, but you gotta figure it's quite a coincidence in timing that europe all of a sudden 'rediscovered' all of this knowledge just as they attack people who have it. And we are, at the least, SURE that we stole the arabic numeral system, and algebra. Or maybe we invented the same system of numbers independent from them.. yeah, that's gotta be it.
Either way, SOMETHING had to act as a catalyst before something like the renassaince could occur, although it may have simply been that men were actually displaced from their homes for a time, and gained a concept of a larger world then the one they knew... but I find it easier to believe that they jacked a ton of ideas from the middle eastern folks. I know I would have.

Actually, the Arabs "stole" the numeral system from the Indians.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Post by **fgalkin** » 2005-05-03 03:48pm

Zero132132 wrote:Well, we know that we killed millions of them, and that that's when we learned about the arabic numeric system. Is it a coincidence?

Except that it wasn't the Arabs who developed it, it was the Hindus. Whoops!

And the binary system is quite different.. it's a much more basic code, with only two digits. To discover something similar or the same independantly doesn't take much skill. However, creating a base-10 math system with 10 digits that are exactly the same as a different place that you just happened to go through while killing thousands of people so that a bunch of nuts could have a holy land and doing it all at the same time is just a bit much for me to call coincidence. But what do you think?

Oh yeah, and how did the Holy Land become Muslim in the first place? Oh yeah, they were "killing thousands of people so that a bunch of nuts could have a holy land"

And no, they didn't rediscover it at the times of the Crusades.

Damn me and my run-on sentinces...

Ideed.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-05-03 05:23pm

Personally, more than stealing, I believe the Western Europeans did take same knowlege back with them to wet their apetities for what they lost. I think the Crusades benefit in a minor way by providing the impetus behind later exploration and development.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2005-05-03 06:07pm

Boyish-Tigerlilly wrote:Personally, more than stealing, I believe the Western Europeans did take same knowlege back with them to wet their apetities for what they lost. I think the Crusades benefit in a minor way by providing the impetus behind later exploration and development.

Sorry to be a grammar-bitch, but "whet" their "appetites". "Whet" and "wet" are two very different words.

And yes, IIRC it's generally accepted that the ideas and artifacts brought back from the Crusades were a taste of the exotic; however, this hardly qualifies as "stealing", even if it did somehow directly inspire the Renaissance (not too likely). Theft implies the denial of the stolen object from the former owner, so far as I'm concerned.

Boyish-Tigerlilly · Post by **Boyish-Tigerlilly** » 2005-05-03 08:05pm

Sorry to be a grammar-bitch, but "whet" their "appetites". "Whet" and "wet" are two very different words.

I ment to put whet, since whet is the word for stimulate etc. Just forgot the H.
Thanks though.

And yes, IIRC it's generally accepted that the ideas and artifacts brought back from the Crusades were a taste of the exotic; however, this hardly qualifies as "stealing", even if it did somehow directly inspire the Renaissance (not too likely). Theft implies the denial of the stolen object from the former owner, so far as I'm concerned.

That's why I don't necessarily think it's stealing, unless you mean stealing as in the idomatic sense.