Good reasons against nuclear power?

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sketerpot
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Post by sketerpot »

kheegan wrote:You are correct. The highest temperature superconductors are above the 77K liquid nitrogen threshold, the problem is in the material. At current prices, Pb-stabilized Bi-2223 (BSCCO) superconductors (Tc = 110K) cost around $21/kiloAmp/m in material costs alone.

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You have the units wrong. It's kA*m, not kA/m. That said, I don't think this changes your argument.
The average power consumption of an American household is probably of the order 1kilowatts, which at P=VI means about 10Amps. A village of 500 people 500km away from the power plant will therefore require a superconducting cable costing $50 million. :lol:
You're assuming that the voltage of these superconducting power lines would be ordinary household 120 V. That's ridiculous. For long range transmission of lots of power, high voltage power lines are used, with transformers to step the voltage up and down. Stepping up the voltage reduces the current proportionally, and it's only the current that those costs you mentioned apply to.

If our power grid ran the way you think it does, we would be fucked. This is a major part of the reason we went to AC: dramatically easier distribution.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

PainRack wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote: This is why we have a thing known as the national grid, basically power plants feed into the grid and everything else draws off of it...you may remember the entire east coast of the US going dark one day...that's what happens when you let people with a "just in time" business model run the grid...

Basically you dont need a power plant next door to run your shit, it could be at the other end of the country...so the city/village thing isnt a big deal...if it's too much for a village, no problem it can supply a bunch of villages instead.
And not everyone everywhere lives in the US. Can you imagine an island country like Indonesia relying exclusively on nuclear power? That's 13,000 over islands right down there.
Undersea cables?

Besides which, almost all western nations use a grid, remember I'm from the UK not the US...it just happens we dont have as dramatic example of the grids existance as the US blackout.
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Post by CoyoteNature »

Not against nuclear power, just think it is rather inefficient and expensive.

Also tend to think that the supporters tend to over state its benefits, just as its detractors tend to over state its advantages. Even the nations that use it extensively aren't exactly expanding its use. Is it economically viable?, in the US for example it is only even in the ball game because of massive subsidies from the government.

Prefer the plans for hybridized fission fusion reactors instead.

That or the interesting work being done with thorium and non uranium or plutonium derivatives in nuclear work.

SPS might be prohibitively expensive, but perhaps instead a series of relay satellites which would bring in power from economically advantageous areas say in hydropower rich areas, or geothermal, or tidal, or temperature differential. I mean there is enough fossil free energy sources, only problem is that you can't get the power elsewhere cheaply. Before anyone says it I am well aware of orbital launch costs, I am merely suggesting a cheaper alternative.

That or use the power from some stations where power is cheap to electrolyze hydrogen, and tanker the shipments to power stations around the world.
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Post by aerius »

CoyoteNature wrote:Not against nuclear power, just think it is rather inefficient and expensive.

Also tend to think that the supporters tend to over state its benefits, just as its detractors tend to over state its advantages. Even the nations that use it extensively aren't exactly expanding its use. Is it economically viable?, in the US for example it is only even in the ball game because of massive subsidies from the government.
So even after all the ridiculous licensing costs are accounted for, it's only marginally more expensive than coal which is the cheapest energy source. link. Throw the retarded enviro-hippie laws and the licensing costs which they incur and nukes end up being the cheapest power source period.
SPS might be prohibitively expensive, but perhaps instead a series of relay satellites which would bring in power from economically advantageous areas say in hydropower rich areas, or geothermal, or tidal, or temperature differential. I mean there is enough fossil free energy sources, only problem is that you can't get the power elsewhere cheaply. Before anyone says it I am well aware of orbital launch costs, I am merely suggesting a cheaper alternative.
Standard high voltage power lines are IIRC, roughly 95% efficient. Converting electricity to microwaves and bouncing them off a satellite to be converted back again isn't going to come anywhere near that. Besides the energy losses at the conversion, you have losses going through atmosphere and losses at the bounce. Good luck, it ain't happening.
That or use the power from some stations where power is cheap to electrolyze hydrogen, and tanker the shipments to power stations around the world.
No, no, no, and no. Hydrogen is very energy intensive to make, and on top of that you need to compress or liquify it for transport. Then there's the inefficiency of the power cell or whatever you're using at the other end to convert it back to electricity. Car and Driver just did an article on the energy costs of converting the entire US gasoline vehicle fleet to hydrogen, and the end result is it DOUBLES the energy consumption as compared to burning gasoline in cars. The cars are more efficient, but making & transporting the hydrogen consumes a hideous amount of power.
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Post by tharkûn »

Not against nuclear power, just think it is rather inefficient and expensive.
We used to have a working nuclear reactor on campus (neutron breeder), the techs assured me that complying with the rules made virtually everything multiplicatively more expensive than operating reactors on friggen submarines.
Also tend to think that the supporters tend to over state its benefits, just as its detractors tend to over state its advantages. Even the nations that use it extensively aren't exactly expanding its use. Is it economically viable?, in the US for example it is only even in the ball game because of massive subsidies from the government.
Ahem, BS. The French are actively increasing their nuclear usage; as are the Japanese. Of the major states, they are the heaviest nuclear users.

Is it economicly viable? According the OECD, the International Energy Agency, and EVERY life cycle assement I've ever read, nuclear power is cheaper per kWh than anything except coal (and if you include the health impacts of coal it is cheaper).
That or the interesting work being done with thorium and non uranium or plutonium derivatives in nuclear work.
Thorium is much more expensive currently. You'd have build lots of new infrastructure and you'd face starvation price cuts by the uranium cycle as it faces disruption. Eventually thorium might be more economical, but not right now.

SPS might be prohibitively expensive, but perhaps instead a series of relay satellites which would bring in power from economically advantageous areas say in hydropower rich areas, or geothermal, or tidal, or temperature differential. I mean there is enough fossil free energy sources, only problem is that you can't get the power elsewhere cheaply. Before anyone says it I am well aware of orbital launch costs, I am merely suggesting a cheaper alternative.
Don't make me laugh. Beaming power is far, far more inefficient than sending it down a conventional wire. Current doesn't scatter, EM radiation in atmosphere does.

The main problems with these energy sources are:
1. They are expensive. Tidal sucks ass, OTEC is worse.
2. There aren't enough hot spots to meet demand. Hydro- exactly which rivers aren't being tapped in the CONUS again? OTEC? How may places really have that large of temperature differentials in relatively shallow water? Tidal? Sorry but we don't all have copious high volume fjords that create large amounts of head. Geothermal? Sorry but again don't have all that many sites where you can set up shop.

There are more problems (such as seasonal variation in OTEC, monthly variations in tidal, greenhouse gas emission for hydro, etc.) but those are the big ones. What cheap generating potential exists, is already tapped or can't be tapped for various reasons (i.e. damming Niagra Falls is not politically possible).
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Post by aerius »

tharkûn wrote:There are more problems (such as seasonal variation in OTEC, monthly variations in tidal, greenhouse gas emission for hydro, etc.) but those are the big ones. What cheap generating potential exists, is already tapped or can't be tapped for various reasons (i.e. damming Niagra Falls is not politically possible).
And even if Niagara Falls was completely dammed, they'd only get another 1.5-2GW at most. In the grand scheme of things that's a piddling amount of power. At present, Niagara's good for about 4.4GW total for both US and Canada so you're looking at 6-6.5GW if it were completely dammed. That's about the output of a 7-unit CANDU nuke plant (~900MW/unit).

Screw those renewable enviro-greenie schemes. I'm building nuke plants by the dozen.
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Post by CoyoteNature »

Ahem no they are not, it is true they are the heaviest nuclear users but the trend is not towards continued expansion, due mainly to public opionion and improvements in fossil fuel efficiency.

http://www.brookings.edu/fp/cuse/analysis/nuclear.htm

Before I come of halfcocked I am going to learn more first and reply later.
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Post by defanatic »

I think one of the main barriers to Nuclear Power is the hysteria involved. All those people lying down infront of trucks and so-on pushes up the construction time (and therefore costs) greatly. Which is the reason why projected costs are so much less than actual costs.
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Post by Wyrm »

aerius wrote:And even if Niagara Falls was completely dammed,
Niagra already is almost completely dammed. What you see today there is a trickle compared to what the falls used to be. The reason why they did it is erosion control. The Falls are retreating, but silly humans want to keep it in the same place it was, so they diverted the flow around the falls proper (I think they put a hyrdo plant there, but I'm not sure), and let only a small percentage flow over the actual falls.
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Post by NoXion »

Freedom for Fission

Don't know if it's been posted before but it's a very good site for dispelling myths about nuclear power. I especially like his "response to greenpeace's calender
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Post by tharkûn »

Ahem no they are not, it is true they are the heaviest nuclear users but the trend is not towards continued expansion, due mainly to public opionion and improvements in fossil fuel efficiency.

http://www.brookings.edu/fp/cuse/analysis/nuclear.htm
Ahem no they are. Why you feel compelled to cite an article five years out of date under a different government when fossil fuel prices were ridiciously low ... I'll never know.

Seriously: "If the prices of gas and oil iremain at current levels [2001], a gradual move to close France's nuclear power plants may prove to be most cost effective. " Needless to say that they haven't, and have increased dramaticly in price.

Since that article was written the French have added 180 MW of capacity at Chooz and Civaux and plans to break ground on a new 1.6 GW plant in Flammanville in 2007.

The generating capacity, at least as of July 13th, 2005, calls for increased nuclear generation as well as increased hydro and bio-fuels. The total percentage of generation may flatline, but that is to diversify production with the goal of giving the French more cushion to dampen price swings in the nuclear supply industries.
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Post by aerius »

Wyrm wrote:Niagra already is almost completely dammed. What you see today there is a trickle compared to what the falls used to be. The reason why they did it is erosion control. The Falls are retreating, but silly humans want to keep it in the same place it was, so they diverted the flow around the falls proper (I think they put a hyrdo plant there, but I'm not sure), and let only a small percentage flow over the actual falls.
I wouldn't say so. Normal flow for Niagara before damming was around 200,000 cubic feet/second. During tourist season they guarantee that at least 100,000 cusecs goes over the falls and in off season at least 50,000 cusecs. The falls' location being stabilized is a side-effect of the water diversion for power generation, they weren't aiming for it but it just happened.
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Post by CoyoteNature »

Strictly speaking I didn't like that article(oops saw the september on the side and just thought it was 2005, lazy me), and I am in the process of seeing if I can get a more cogent response with more accurate and up to date information
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Post by Darth Wong »

The high cost of nuclear is a self-fulfilling criticism. Thanks to environmental hysteria, draconian licensing requirements have been instituted which cause even a simple thing like a piping system valve to easily cost three times more than the same valve for a normal power plant. It can be completely identical in every way, but all of the CYA paperwork will triple its cost. So it's not just the commissioning and licensing costs of the plant itself, but tons of similar costs buried in the costs of all the parts you have to buy in order to build the plant in the first place.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

What does CYA represent?
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Post by Ace Pace »

Cover your ass.
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Post by The Kernel »

Darth Wong wrote:The high cost of nuclear is a self-fulfilling criticism. Thanks to environmental hysteria, draconian licensing requirements have been instituted which cause even a simple thing like a piping system valve to easily cost three times more than the same valve for a normal power plant. It can be completely identical in every way, but all of the CYA paperwork will triple its cost. So it's not just the commissioning and licensing costs of the plant itself, but tons of similar costs buried in the costs of all the parts you have to buy in order to build the plant in the first place.
Funny, this reminds me of the FAA certification that is done on all components used in aircraft. My father just had a new TCAS put in his King Air, and when you look at the components used, it's pretty obvious that the device only costs a few hundred dollars to manufacture, yet it costs over $75,000 to install. This is mostly due to ridiculously intensive FAA requirements on construction.

It doesn't just extend to avionics either, even a fucking satphone or entertainment system in a plane is at least 5x what you would pay for a non-aircraft model.
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Post by drachefly »

If all that extra cost is applied to quality assurance, it makes sense. If the extra cost is simply applied to the APPEARANCE of quality assurance, it's asinine.


As for orbital solar collectors: it'll be economical if we have a space elevator or rotavator (which would slash ground-to-orbit costs by a ridiculously huge factor), or can make them out of asteroids so they don't need to be lifted. Otherwise, not even close.

If we're very lucky, some sort of earth-space cable kind of thing (less improbably a rotavator than an elevator) may be available in several decades. If we're not very lucky, it may be simply impossible to build a reliable one on Earth.

In that case, nuclear. Say, where does France put their waste?
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