How are catholics not christians?

Lord Sander · Post by **Lord Sander** » 2005-09-26 10:58am

Rye wrote:"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." -Matthew 23:9

Does that include your, you know, actual father?

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-09-26 11:15am

John 15,26 wrote:But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me

In my intrepretation, all this quote says that the Holy Spirit and God will vouch for the spiritual validity of Jesus as part of his (God's) order. Nothing reality to refute one way or the other on the issue of Jesus being god incarnate.

Acts 2,33 wrote:Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

[/quote]
This one also does not refute the statement that Jesus is God Incarnate. This quote refers to Peter speaking to Fellow Jews during Pentecostm saying that It was not david to ascended to heaven but it was Jesus who did and now serves as the Right hand of God.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-09-26 11:26am

[quote="Rye"]
As for idolatry, as IF that doesn't happen. There's graven images all over the fucking place in catholic churches, of things both earthly and heavenly. So the fundies will appeal to, "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" -Exodus 20:4, and well, they have a point on that one.
[quote]

From a more Liberal interpretation of Exodus, all it states is that that we can not create graven images or Idols and then procede to worship them. However, that does not mean that it bars people from creating images of God or Jesus for Reference or Aesthetic purposes.

Moreover, I believe that like the rest of the Old Testament, should be taken with some grains of salt as much of the Old Testament in my opinion is biblical history laced with many exaggerations and allegory designed to tell a "moral of the story."

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2005-09-26 02:05pm

Yeah, that's bullshit though. There's no way pagan idolatry of the past is any different at all to what goes on in catholic churches. That's why you don't find any statues of YHVH in jewish temples, but you will find Jesus and saints all over the fucking place in any catholic establishment, because pictures of gods and "heavenly entities" are outlawed. Same thing in islam.

bibletexts wrote:Prohibition Against Idols: Statues of God, however, were strictly forbidden to Israel according to the Bible, a prohibition that sets Israel apart from its neighbors. The aniconic tradition appears to be ancient and effective. No male image that has been certainly identified as Yahweh has so far been found at an Israelite site. The second commandment, generally considered to be early, connects the prohibition against images with monotheism: ‘You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image…for I the Lord your God am a jealous God…’

Bit of a stark contrast there. Also, look at some early christian attitudes to idolatry:

Paul wrote: 1Co 10:12-14

12 Those who think they are standing firm had better be careful that they do not fall. 13 Every test that you have experienced is the kind that normally comes to people. But God keeps his promise, and he will not allow you to be tested beyond your power to remain firm; at the time you are put to the test, he will give you the strength to endure it, and so provide you with a way out. 14 So then, my dear friends, keep away from the worship of idols.

2Co 6:14-16

14 Do not try to work together as equals with unbelievers, for it cannot be done. How can right and wrong be partners? How can light and darkness live together? 15 How can Christ and the Devil agree? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 How can God’s temple come to terms with pagan idols? For we are the temple of the living God!

Gal 5:19-21

19 What human nature does is quite plain. It shows itself in immoral, filthy, and indecent actions; 20 in worship of idols and witchcraft. People become enemies and they fight; they become jealous, angry, and ambitious. They separate into parties and groups; 21 they are envious, get drunk, have orgies, and do other things like these. I warn you now as I have before: those who do these things will not possess the Kingdom of God.

Tertullian wrote: written 200 A.D., ANF 3:61, 62)

The principal crime of the human race, the highest guilt charged upon the world, the whole procuring cause of judgment -- is idolatry.

God prohibits an idol as much to be made as to be worshipped.

The zeal of faith will direct its pleadings to this matter. It bewails that a Christian would come from idols into the church. It bewails that he would come from an adversary workshop into the house of God. It bewails that he would raise to God the Father hands that are the mothers of idols... In fact, those very hands deliver to others what they have contaminated. For idol makers are chosen even into the ecclesiastical order! Oh wickedness!

Lord Sabre Ace · Post by **Lord Sabre Ace** » 2005-09-26 02:19pm

Rye wrote:Yeah, that's bullshit though. There's no way pagan idolatry of the past is any different at all to what goes on in catholic churches. That's why you don't find any statues of YHVH in jewish temples, but you will find Jesus and saints all over the fucking place in any catholic establishment, because pictures of gods and "heavenly entities" are outlawed. Same thing in islam.

Weren't the statues, stained-glass windows, etc mainly created for education, though? My history teacher told us that the churches had images of the stories of the Bible because most people of that time couldn't read.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2005-09-26 02:49pm

That's true of most idolatry, in addition to epics in text form, you often get murals of mythological events, and idols representing whatever. The RCC is no different.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-09-26 06:52pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
John 15,26 wrote:But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me
In my intrepretation, all this quote says that the Holy Spirit and God will vouch for the spiritual validity of Jesus as part of his (God's) order. Nothing reality to refute one way or the other on the issue of Jesus being god incarnate.

Acts 2,33 wrote:Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
This one also does not refute the statement that Jesus is God Incarnate. This quote refers to Peter speaking to Fellow Jews during Pentecostm saying that It was not david to ascended to heaven but it was Jesus who did and now serves as the Right hand of God.

OK so what about Jesus' baptism where Jesus and the Father are clearly in two different places (Jesus down in the river, the Father in heaven)

Matt 3:16-17 wrote:And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

What about John 8:17-18 where Jesus says quite explicitly that he and his Father constitute TWO men?

John 8:17-18 wrote:It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth bwitness of me.

What about John 14:28 where Jesus says the Father is greater than he is and he GOES TO HIM? How can Jesus be greater than himself and go to himself?

John 14:28 wrote:Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

What about the stoning of Stephen where Stephen clearly says he sees Jesus standing on the RIGHT HAND of God?

Acts 7:55-56 wrote:But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

What about John 17:20-23 where Jesus prays to the Father asking that his followers may be one as he and the Father are one? Does Jesus want all the Christians of the world to merge into one body?

john 17:20-23 wrote:Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Post by **Cairber** » 2005-09-26 07:20pm

The first chapters of John tell the story of the Word (Jesus), who was with and of God, who was God at the beginning...etcetcetc. Then the Word was made flesh, but that did not stop the Word from still being God. I could quote the entire story for you, but I assume you have a Bible in front of you.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-09-26 07:24pm

Cairber wrote:The first chapters of John tell the story of the Word (Jesus), who was with and of God, who was God at the beginning...etcetcetc. Then the Word was made flesh, but that did not stop the Word from still being God. I could quote the entire story for you, but I assume you have a Bible in front of you.

Yes, I've seen John 1:1 many times and it explicitly denotes TWO different beings referred to as "God". The Word was "with God" and was God. Two Gods.

Post by **Cairber** » 2005-09-26 07:28pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Cairber wrote:The first chapters of John tell the story of the Word (Jesus), who was with and of God, who was God at the beginning...etcetcetc. Then the Word was made flesh, but that did not stop the Word from still being God. I could quote the entire story for you, but I assume you have a Bible in front of you.
Yes, I've seen John 1:1 many times and it explicitly denotes TWO different beings referred to as "God". The Word was "with God" and was God. Two Gods.

I don't see how you came to that. There is one Word and one God, and they are one being. Yes, the Word is both with him and in him...because they are one and the same. You seem to be reading it word for word and not taking the other words into mind and reading them as a whole.

Post by **Cairber** » 2005-09-26 07:29pm

and, as a side note, I do admit that this is not a 100% literal reading of the Bible. And if you are arguing about a literal, word for word without taking literary device into mind, then you could be seen as correct. But I have to part ways with you on that.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-09-26 07:32pm

Cairber wrote:I don't see how you came to that. There is one Word and one God, and they are one being. Yes, the Word is both with him and in him...because they are one and the same. You seem to be reading it word for word and not taking the other words into mind and reading them as a whole.

How many times do people talk about being something and then being with that something?

And would you care to address the verses I quoted above?

Post by **Cairber** » 2005-09-26 07:37pm

Catholics recite "With Him, In Him..." every mass...

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-09-26 07:39pm

Cairber wrote:Catholics recite "With Him, In Him..." every mass...

Circular logic.

And you still haven't addressed the verses I quoted above.

Does Jesus want all the Catholics in the world to fuse into one being because he clearly asks the Father that his followers may be one as he and the Father are one.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-09-26 07:44pm

Let me Calrify abit in what is meant by God Incarnate. Yes, The official Church Doctrine is that Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God are one and the same. But it get's a bit more complicated on that. This because of the fact of the Holy Trinity. The reason why John and Matthew and acts say that according to Church Teaching is that God has two wills. A devine and Human nature. The Devine nature being God and the Holy Spirit.

According to Church Doctorine, in the conception of Jesus, God imbued on the yet unborn jesus with his second will, which was his human nature. This is why in My opinion, Jesus calls God the father not becuase God concieved Jesus in a literally fatheristic way, But it is God's Human nature that seeks What C.S. Lewis called JOY. Which is the Human emotion of longing to fulfill ones spiritual needs. That is why in my opinion, Jesus is written down as independent of God.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-09-26 07:46pm

Ghetto Edit: The reason why John and Matthew and acts say what they say is because according to Church Teaching is that God has two wills.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-09-26 07:49pm

What that sounds like to me in modern day terms, is that God programmed Jesus' mind with his personality. Is that accurate Solo?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-09-26 07:50pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:Ghetto Edit: The reason why John and Matthew and acts say what they say is because according to Church Teaching is that God has two wills.

And those "two wills" were explicitly described as being in two different locations.

Post by **Cairber** » 2005-09-26 07:50pm

I think im confused

I thought you were arguing that Catholics DIDNT believe God and Jesus were one, which I am not sure about anymore. I think I read the argument wrong as I was going through the thread.

All the passages you quoted could be seen as God and Jesus being separate, but only to someone who doesn't hold that the Word was with and was God at the beginning. But I am not a theologian, and I can't quote passages off hand (with my baby in one hand here and typing with other atm). So I will conciede to you. Besides, I dont think I can make very logical opinions about my faith, so, if I tried, I would definitely lose. Sorry for having thrown thread off course.

I will say that the passages you quoted def make me think, and I might ask our priest to clarify for me and see what he has to say about them.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-09-26 07:52pm

Cairber wrote:I think im confused I thought you were arguing that Catholics DIDNT believe God and Jesus were one, which I am not sure about anymore. I think I read the argument wrong as I was going through the thread.

No, I am well aware that Catholics believe in the trinity; the three in one idea of a single diety.

I'm simply arguing against the idea of the trinity...using the Bible.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2005-09-26 07:53pm

Darth Servo wrote:What that sounds like to me in modern day terms, is that God programmed Jesus' mind with his personality. Is that accurate Solo?

No I don't think so at all. God Could've have just as easily imbued his entire will into Jesus and could have easily manipulated Jesus like a puppet from the start.

TimothyC · Post by **TimothyC** » 2005-09-26 08:25pm

fgalkin wrote:
HemlockGrey wrote:Arianism forever!
Yeah, but the only Arians today are Jehovah's Witnesses. Do you really want to support them?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Not True good sir. As I've said in other threads, we're just in hiding. Behind Couches. Like the Dinosaurs.

bekeleven · Post by **bekeleven** » 2005-09-26 09:36pm

To answer the original question, see here, here, here, and here.