Does The Bible Attack Lesbians?

That NOS Guy · Post by **That NOS Guy** » 2005-10-04 02:43pm

I was reading through my NIV bible the other day on gays and something odd struck me, I've never seen a verse decrying lesbians, only men. I can't for the life of me drag up a quote about lesbians being wrong, only it attacking gays.

Can anyone else help me on this?

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2005-10-04 02:48pm

Depending on how one interprets the Bible, gay sex is only as abominable as eating pork, shrimp, etc. and even then, only for priests. Since Jesus apparently fufilled all the old laws of sacrifice and purity, gay sex wouldn't even really be a sin.

And the cities of Sodom and Gammorah were destroyed because they were rich and didn't help the poor, not because of teh ghey.

Proof: Ezek. 16:49ff. "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it."

General Trelane (Retired) · Post by **General Trelane (Retired)** » 2005-10-04 03:19pm

The (infamous) Levitical laws that declare 'homosexuality' to be an abomination are explicitly only relevant to male-male homosexuality, and any version of the Bible that renders this as simply homosexuality (thus implying lesbianism as well) reveals the bias and dishonesty of the translators.

As for a direct quote decrying lesbianism, I think the ONLY verses are in Romans 1:26-27.

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2005-10-04 04:42pm

As an aside, there really isn't anything in the Bible that can be construed as forbidding female masturbation, right?

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2005-10-04 04:59pm

kheegan wrote:As an aside, there really isn't anything in the Bible that can be construed as forbidding female masturbation, right?

I don't recall there being anything forbidding masturbation with anyone. The story of Onan forbids a man from not impregnating his dead brother's wife and thus stealing the inheritence from the assumably unborn "son" of the dead brother, if I remember the details right.

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2005-10-04 05:21pm

Akhlut wrote:
kheegan wrote:As an aside, there really isn't anything in the Bible that can be construed as forbidding female masturbation, right?
I don't recall there being anything forbidding masturbation with anyone. The story of Onan forbids a man from not impregnating his dead brother's wife and thus stealing the inheritence from the assumably unborn "son" of the dead brother, if I remember the details right.

I said construed to be against female masturbation. You may not interpret the story of Onan to be against male masturbation, but goodness knows plenty of Christians do. However, there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that even the most foam-mouthed fundies can say is against female masturbation.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-10-04 05:23pm

Since when did Jesus "fulfill" the old laws? He specifically states that he has not come to abolish the Old Testament, but simply to provide an easier path to God. One is still supposed to repent and feel ashamed of ones sins before Christ. Thus, being knowingly and unabashedly gay is a sin, albeit. The pork eating taboo was more covered in the other books of the Torah iirc, rather than the OT, which is the only book Christians and Jews share.

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2005-10-04 05:28pm

Take another look through Leviticus. It's in the OT.

Akhlut · Post by **Akhlut** » 2005-10-04 05:36pm

wolveraptor wrote:Since when did Jesus "fulfill" the old laws? He specifically states that he has not come to abolish the Old Testament, but simply to provide an easier path to God. One is still supposed to repent and feel ashamed of ones sins before Christ. Thus, being knowingly and unabashedly gay is a sin, albeit. The pork eating taboo was more covered in the other books of the Torah iirc, rather than the OT, which is the only book Christians and Jews share.

Matt. 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.” (emphasis mine)

Depending on interpretation, one can say that fulfilled means no longer binding. At least, that's what I got from a nun when I was in my Catholic high school and asked her why Catholics no longer had to follow Jewish dietary laws. I just extended that line of reasoning to the laws against homosexuality in the OT.

kheegan wrote:I said construed to be against female masturbation. You may not interpret the story of Onan to be against male masturbation, but goodness knows plenty of Christians do. However, there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that even the most foam-mouthed fundies can say is against female masturbation.

Sorry, my bad there. Should have read that a bit more indepth.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2005-10-04 05:49pm

General Trelane (Retired) wrote:The (infamous) Levitical laws that declare 'homosexuality' to be an abomination are explicitly only relevant to male-male homosexuality, and any version of the Bible that renders this as simply homosexuality (thus implying lesbianism as well) reveals the bias and dishonesty of the translators.

As for a direct quote decrying lesbianism, I think the ONLY verses are in Romans 1:26-27.

Well, I've been told by a very reliable person that that verse actually refers to women having a dominant role during sex, and thus perverting what Paul insists is then atural order of things, the men also pervert the natural order and fuck one another. "It's the same thing as women not wearing mens clothes, or mixing flax and wool or mixing crops. its not the natural order of things. That's the point behind Romans 1."

The idea it refers to lesbianism, as far as I can tell, is a rhetorical interpretation which misunderstands the sense Paul used the word "likewise" from "they were being immoral by perverting the natural order" to "they were perverting the natural order by doing the exact same kinds of acts."

In the OT, guy on guy sex is banned due to it being a pagan influence on the israelites. Lesbians aren't mentioned anywhere.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-10-05 12:19am

Akhlut wrote:Depending on how one interprets the Bible, gay sex is only as abominable as eating pork, shrimp, etc. and even then, only for priests. Since Jesus apparently fufilled all the old laws of sacrifice and purity, gay sex wouldn't even really be a sin.

And the cities of Sodom and Gammorah were destroyed because they were rich and didn't help the poor, not because of teh ghey.

Proof: Ezek. 16:49ff. "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it."

Jude 1:7

Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

CrimsonRaine · Post by **CrimsonRaine** » 2005-10-05 11:42am

Akhlut wrote:Depending on how one interprets the Bible, gay sex is only as abominable as eating pork, shrimp, etc. and even then, only for priests. Since Jesus apparently fufilled all the old laws of sacrifice and purity, gay sex wouldn't even really be a sin.

And the cities of Sodom and Gammorah were destroyed because they were rich and didn't help the poor, not because of teh ghey.

Proof: Ezek. 16:49ff. "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it."

I am not doubting what you are saying here nor am I questioning it. Why is it then, that the majority of Christians show such abhorrent hatred towards gays? I have seen on many occasions where Christian students have written papers to their homosexual professors how all homosexuals should die or how all homosexuals should be grouped together or how heterosexuals have the right to fire their homosexual employees due to their orientation.

Is it because many Christians read both the new and old testament of the Bible and include both laws, those pre-Christ and those post-Christ? If Christ fulfilled the old laws of sacrifice, why are homosexual still so hatefully targerted by the humanity loving Christians?

General Trelane (Retired) · Post by **General Trelane (Retired)** » 2005-10-05 01:57pm

Rye wrote:
General Trelane (Retired) wrote:
As for a direct quote decrying lesbianism, I think the ONLY verses are in Romans 1:26-27.
Well, I've been told by a very reliable person that that verse actually refers to women having a dominant role during sex, and thus perverting what Paul insists is then atural order of things, the men also pervert the natural order and fuck one another. "It's the same thing as women not wearing mens clothes, or mixing flax and wool or mixing crops. its not the natural order of things. That's the point behind Romans 1."

The idea it refers to lesbianism, as far as I can tell, is a rhetorical interpretation which misunderstands the sense Paul used the word "likewise" from "they were being immoral by perverting the natural order" to "they were perverting the natural order by doing the exact same kinds of acts."

I would agree that the Romans verses are dependent on interpretation (of course, a fundie wouldn't see it that way because his/her interpretation is assumed to be correct). This is actually quite ironic because there is only ONE reference in the entire bible that can be construed as forbidding lesbianism, and even that reference is dependent on interpretation!

Rye wrote:In the OT, guy on guy sex is banned due to it being a pagan influence on the israelites. Lesbians aren't mentioned anywhere.

Agreed. But don't forget the cultural impact as well (specifically the importance placed on procreation as a god-given duty, and the second-class role of women).

General Trelane (Retired) · Post by **General Trelane (Retired)** » 2005-10-05 02:08pm

CrimsonRaine wrote: Why is it then, that the majority of Christians show such abhorrent hatred towards gays? . . . If Christ fulfilled the old laws of sacrifice, why are homosexual still so hatefully targerted by the humanity loving Christians?

Simply put, imho, people read out of the bible what they read into it. In other words, they bring their own cultural baggage (prejudice) and then find what they want to find. So when they come across conflicting verses, they find some way to harmonize them that makes sense to them (i.e. they selectively interpret them). I would think that most Christians (especially conservatives) would deny that they do this.

I recently overheard such a person asking a pastor something along the lines of, "We base our position on scripture; what do people advocating same-gender unions base theirs on besides love?" That question sums it up nicely, I think.

Fortunately, culture is not stagnant, and there is a growing shift towards acceptance (though there is also a reactionary movement of conservatives to simply dig their heals in).