Would you give up control of your society for "paradise

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

User avatar
Noble Ire
The Arbiter
Posts: 5938
Joined: 2005-04-30 12:03am
Location: Beyond the Outer Rim

Post by Noble Ire »

You know damn well you don't have a choice when you're facing near-omnipotent alien beings.
Probably not. But humans have been known to fight for utterly hopeless causes if they feel that what they support is right.
No one ever claimed that you would be eternally happy. This isn't heaven, and the aliens can't do everything. But just because we can't achieve the penultimate Utopia, doesn't mean we can't try our damndest. Removing disease and crime would be a good first step, don't you think?
In theory, yes. But to remove them so arbitarily would only invite new forms of strife, perhaps worse forms. If this was to occur, would the aliens step in again, and end it too? And what if we persist in doing things they don't like? They take away every activity that seems "harmful" in their eyes. Eventually, your left with a population restricted only to activities and life styles approved by the alien version of Big Brother. Certainly, they may seem benevolent, and they may stay that way for millenia, but there would be nothing stopping them from changing their minds about us, or modifying us to the point where we don't really exist as humans anymore, even if it is in their minds simply an exercise in keeping us safe.
This new society is hundreds of millions of years ahead of us, and is basically the pinnacle of what we would hope to achieve. We don't brush away progress: we simply skip the long and arduous journey to get to it.
But it isn't our society; its the alien's society, or what they think ours should be, imposed on us. What is the point of our society if we as a race didn't have to fight to create it? It would be like living on a movie set, in a world you know isn't real.
And even then, they can be transported off to that new Earth anyways.
That's cheating. What's the point of this scenario if it has a reset button?
What is it about ultimate freedom that doesn't make us human?
Freedom is the right to struggle against life to make it better. Human existance is and has always been a struggle. Take away the ability or perhaps even the need to struggle, and you cease to be human. I suppose if whatever you become lives in paradise, losing what you once were, and everything your forebears fought to create isn't so bad. It just makes thousands of years of history irrelevant, and removes a core element of what it is to be you. As a student of history, I guess I'm just a bit sentimental. :wink:
The Rift
Stanislav Petrov- The man who saved the world
Hugh Thompson Jr.- A True American Hero
"In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - President Barack Obama
"May fortune favor you, for your goals are the goals of the world." - Ancient Chall valediction
User avatar
wolveraptor
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4042
Joined: 2004-12-18 06:09pm

Post by wolveraptor »

Noble Ire wrote:In theory, yes blah blah blah I'm not sticking to the OP's scenario
Did the OP suggest anything about the aliens that would lead you to assume things like this? No. I suggest you make your own thread where the alien's honesty is questionable. However, in this thread, the all the aliens do is remove crime and disease. Crime can objectively be determined, so don't give me all this bullshit about them "stopping us from doing whatever they think is bad."
But it isn't our society; its the alien's society, or what they think ours should be, imposed on us. What is the point of our society if we as a race didn't have to fight to create it? It would be like living on a movie set, in a world you know isn't real.
Our society sucks ass compared to theirs. I don't want to live in an imperfect, crime-ridden society. I want to live in a Utopia, and I don't want to have to fight for it. I'm a fucker, not a fighter.
Freedom is the right to struggle against life to make it better.
No, freedom is the right to do what you want. In a society, you can't do things that impinge on other's rights to freedom, so you really can't have ultimate freedom, but who wants that anyways?
Human existance is and has always been a struggle. Take away the ability or perhaps even the need to struggle, and you cease to be human.
So? It's better than being a human.
I suppose if whatever you become lives in paradise, losing what you once were, and everything your forebears fought to create isn't so bad. It just makes thousands of years of history irrelevant, and removes a core element of what it is to be you. As a student of history, I guess I'm just a bit sentimental
That core element of me is responsible for any selfish and bad tendencies I have. The part of me that is always trying to struggle and is restless is my worst part, and is no longer necessary in a Utopia. I'd relish losing that part of me. How does the sudden irrelevance of history cause harm, anyways?
That's cheating. What's the point of this scenario if it has a reset button?
Don't ask me, ask DEATH. He made this scenario. I guess it just shows the benevolence of the aliens.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."

- Herb Bowie, Reason to Rock
User avatar
Noble Ire
The Arbiter
Posts: 5938
Joined: 2005-04-30 12:03am
Location: Beyond the Outer Rim

Post by Noble Ire »

Did the OP suggest anything about the aliens that would lead you to assume things like this? No. I suggest you make your own thread where the alien's honesty is questionable. However, in this thread, the all the aliens do is remove crime and disease. Crime can objectively be determined, so don't give me all this bullshit about them "stopping us from doing whatever they think is bad."
The OP was pretty clear that the aliens would attempt to eliminate prejudice. Do you know how many parts of our society could be considered prejudice by an objective observer? Take elitism, for example. While it can be harmful when misplaced, without a certain amount of elitism, much of our government and society would collapse. I suppose what society would take its place could be better, from some points of view, but it would be very, very different.
Our society sucks ass compared to theirs. I don't want to live in an imperfect, crime-ridden society. I want to live in a Utopia, and I don't want to have to fight for it. I'm a fucker, not a fighter.
A matter of choice, I suppose. If offered a geniune Utopia, than I would certainly take it, but this scenario does not strike me as one.
No, freedom is the right to do what you want. In a society, you can't do things that impinge on other's rights to freedom, so you really can't have ultimate freedom, but who wants that anyways?
We have a different definition of "ultimate freedom." Certainly, I am in favor of a highly structured society, but I would prefer to be in one that could be reformed or even restarted if things, for whatever reason, started going south.
So? It's better than being a human.
That's what I said. To accept this scenario, you give up your humanity. I'm not saying that is necissarily such a horrible thing in this case, but I do have my doubts.
That core element of me is responsible for any selfish and bad tendencies I have. The part of me that is always trying to struggle and is restless is my worst part, and is no longer necessary in a Utopia. I'd relish losing that part of me.
The human impulse to struggle is also the root of our creativity and imagination. Without it, even in paradise, we would simply be mindless capsules of enjoyment. Certainly, it is not such a terrible existance, but I prefer a world where I am free to dream, even if I would have to give up actually living in a dream.

How does the sudden irrelevance of history cause harm, anyways?
Since you reject my interpritation of humanity, for you, I guess it doesn't.
Don't ask me, ask DEATH. He made this scenario. I guess it just shows the benevolence of the aliens.
I still say its a cop-out. :P
The Rift
Stanislav Petrov- The man who saved the world
Hugh Thompson Jr.- A True American Hero
"In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - President Barack Obama
"May fortune favor you, for your goals are the goals of the world." - Ancient Chall valediction
User avatar
Zero
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2023
Joined: 2005-05-02 10:55pm
Location: Trying to find the divide between real memories and false ones.

Post by Zero »

Our society sucks ass compared to theirs. I don't want to live in an imperfect, crime-ridden society. I want to live in a Utopia, and I don't want to have to fight for it. I'm a fucker, not a fighter.
Here's the thing.. it isn't YOUR idea of utopia that they're promoting, it's their own. This has nothing to do with honesty or dishonesty. By virtue of the fact that they decide all rules and all actions, it will truly be THEIR Utopia, not yours. Our notions of right and wrong simply don't matter. Why should they? We're a race that kills off many of its own members to appeal to many different obscure ideologies and ideas.

There's no reason to give us control of this Utopia, since they've seen that humans are bloody fantastic at fucking things up. Whether we can trust them or not, we'll be forced to bow to THEIR ideologies, and our fates will be decided entirely by alien beings with alien psychology.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
User avatar
Ford Prefect
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8254
Joined: 2005-05-16 04:08am
Location: The real number domain

Post by Ford Prefect »

Hey, look, it's the Culture, come to bring us into their utopia maintained with God-tech. While I wouldn't really get why such a powerful people did this, I would submit - nasty though I can be, the planet's state is more important than me, and it would get John Howard out of power.
What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.
User avatar
wolveraptor
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4042
Joined: 2004-12-18 06:09pm

Post by wolveraptor »

^Well, their idea of a utopia closely coincides with my own. Of course, that's fucking unrealistic for an alien race with an "alien psychology", but so is this whole scenario, so never mind that.
The human impulse to struggle is also the root of our creativity and imagination. Without it, even in paradise, we would simply be mindless capsules of enjoyment. Certainly, it is not such a terrible existance, but I prefer a world where I am free to dream, even if I would have to give up actually living in a dream.
The only kind of innovation this Utopia would put a halt to is the technological kind. People would still write shit, and draw shit, and sing shit. Emotional struggles will never, ever be totally quashed.
With the luxury of a computer (with internet even), an education, shelter and food, I guess you don't consider the fact that billions of people don't give a shit about our "loss of technological innovation". They're more concerned about their daughter who is dying of malaria, or their grandfather who can't even recognize them because of Alzheimer's.

Your criticisms boil down to rather wishy-washy philosophical ramblings and a fear of change, it seems.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."

- Herb Bowie, Reason to Rock
User avatar
Molyneux
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7186
Joined: 2005-03-04 08:47am
Location: Long Island

Post by Molyneux »

DEATH wrote:I doubt most people living in the third world would agree with your statmeents, frankly however I can only see people living in the fist world with no disease, poverty or hideous living conditions wanting to go to a world where they don't have a technological head start because they don't want to get a technological boost.

The alien won't give humanity access to it's technology, it will only cure all diseases permanently, give the space technology mentioned and supply the power source.
Humanity will need to amke the teleporting systems itself although once they colonize the rest of the moon the alien will give huamnity the principles needed to amke a 10c engine and the technology to prevent humans going at that speed from turning into paste.

However I can see most of humanity slipping into ennui (If not debauchery) almost in an identical fashion to that seen in the fantastic "Childhoods end" by Arthur C Clark (That deals with an almost identical scenario. although in our case humanity will not "super evolve")
I HATED that book. The premise was interesting, but it was carried out in a completely unbelievable fashion - I just could not hold suspension of disbelief. It felt like one of those stories where the author starts with the ending and then forces the flow of the book towards his desired end, regardless of how unbelievable it ends up being.

Anyway, to be on-topic, I would pretty much say "Thanks for curing the diseases, but...we'll handle the other stuff on our own, thanks." Humanity does require challenges in order to develop, and judging from the limited analogues in history, a primitive society gaining the technology/benefits of a much more advanced one rarely ends up doing well in the long run.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
User avatar
Noble Ire
The Arbiter
Posts: 5938
Joined: 2005-04-30 12:03am
Location: Beyond the Outer Rim

Post by Noble Ire »

The only kind of innovation this Utopia would put a halt to is the technological kind. People would still write shit, and draw shit, and sing shit. Emotional struggles will never, ever be totally quashed.
Perhaps your right. I may have over generalized.
With the luxury of a computer (with internet even), an education, shelter and food, I guess you don't consider the fact that billions of people don't give a shit about our "loss of technological innovation". They're more concerned about their daughter who is dying of malaria, or their grandfather who can't even recognize them because of Alzheimer's.
WTF is your problem? "I would not submit." That's what I wrote. I know full well what such a gift could do for the world populace, and I would deny it to them. I simply am saying that I doubt such a Utopia could last forever, or even really ever be there. But hell, even if it doesn't, those people will be cured. That's great. I never said it wasn't. If your trying to guilt-trip me with this kind of condecending bullshit, don't put words in my mouth.
Your criticisms boil down to rather wishy-washy philosophical ramblings and a fear of change, it seems.
I simply wouldn't wish to see the meaning of 20,000 years of human history, not to mention virtually every bit of our current culture, wiped away in an instant. But that's just me, and the benfits would be to profound to refuse. Did I once say I would do anything to stand against such change, especially after you made clear the OPs intent? I simply noted my view that this scenario is unstable.
The Rift
Stanislav Petrov- The man who saved the world
Hugh Thompson Jr.- A True American Hero
"In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - President Barack Obama
"May fortune favor you, for your goals are the goals of the world." - Ancient Chall valediction
User avatar
Ford Prefect
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8254
Joined: 2005-05-16 04:08am
Location: The real number domain

Post by Ford Prefect »

Noble Ire wrote: I simply wouldn't wish to see the meaning of 20,000 years of human history, not to mention virtually every bit of our current culture, wiped away in an instant. But that's just me, and the benfits would be to profound to refuse. Did I once say I would do anything to stand against such change, especially after you made clear the OPs intent? I simply noted my view that this scenario is unstable.
The only thing the alien is destroying are weapons and diseases, then unifies the world, then keeps everything essentially the same. In what way is virtually every bit of our culture wiped away in an instant?
What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.
User avatar
Noble Ire
The Arbiter
Posts: 5938
Joined: 2005-04-30 12:03am
Location: Beyond the Outer Rim

Post by Noble Ire »

The only thing the alien is destroying are weapons and diseases, then unifies the world, then keeps everything essentially the same. In what way is virtually every bit of our culture wiped away in an instant?
Fuck. I was exaggerating enourmously. Wolveraptor's guilt trip bullshit got my riled up, but my postion still is untendable.

Presented as is, I suppose the situation isn't actually that bad. I question the validity of the situation on several levels, but if it works as stated, its not as bad as I originally thought. I conceed.
The Rift
Stanislav Petrov- The man who saved the world
Hugh Thompson Jr.- A True American Hero
"In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - President Barack Obama
"May fortune favor you, for your goals are the goals of the world." - Ancient Chall valediction
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Post by NecronLord »

Yogi wrote:The people who whine and complain about the aliens taking away our precious freedom, are people who have plenty of food in their stomachs, a solid roof over their heads, and adequate heating in the winter. They do NOT have to slave for hours every say just to provide for their families, live in fear of hooligans and warlords, have to choose between paying for food or heat, and watch their children die because of inadequate medical care.

For a huge number of people in the world, such discussions of "freedom" and "choice" are academic. They never had much of a choice to begin with, and every day is not a struggle for the betterment of humanity, but simply to survive.

For the 852 milliion people going hungry all over the world, I help roll out the welcome mat for our new alien overlords.
Your choice is a personal one. You don't have the means to make the aliens leave, you just have the means to leave them (or rather, you would if DEATH could construct a workable dilemma, or indeed, find his ass with both hands). If you leave, the aliens aren't going to pack up and go home, they're just going to continue doing what they were planning to do for everyone who stays.

What's more, by shifting to the alternate universe, you do not put anyone in danger. The people in the alternate universe will still be suffering whether you go or not. Your choice is do you, personally, want to live in "Culture Mk 2 with reduced style" or would you preffer to live in a world with actual dangers or challenges. No one but yourself will benefit or suffer from your choice.

People who say they would not refuse the option because of the greater good are forgetting that they are not responsible, in this scenario for anyone's situation but their own. They can't drive the aliens off, just go to an alternate earth where there are no aliens.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
Zero
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2023
Joined: 2005-05-02 10:55pm
Location: Trying to find the divide between real memories and false ones.

Post by Zero »

wolveraptor wrote:^Well, their idea of a utopia closely coincides with my own. Of course, that's fucking unrealistic for an alien race with an "alien psychology", but so is this whole scenario, so never mind that.
How do you even know if their idea of a utopia closely coincides with your own? They wipe out all weapons and cure many diseases, but we have no ideas what kinds of crimes they consider worthy of eliminating your mind for. How the fuck do we know that you wouldn't end up 'disappearing' over a speeding ticket? How do we know that overconsumption isn't some damned crime in their eyes? How do we know anything at all about their notions of right and wrong?
So long, and thanks for all the fish
User avatar
wolveraptor
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4042
Joined: 2004-12-18 06:09pm

Post by wolveraptor »

^DEATH did a poor job of outlining exactly what the aliens would do, but I get the sense he means for them to be reasonable in their notions of right and wrong. That's how I know their ideas coincide with my own.

Again, this is not a well-thought out scenario, but you can extrapolate what it's supposed to be about.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."

- Herb Bowie, Reason to Rock
User avatar
Zero
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2023
Joined: 2005-05-02 10:55pm
Location: Trying to find the divide between real memories and false ones.

Post by Zero »

So you're saying that you know that they'd have the same ideas about what should be legal/illegal because... you get the sense that that's what he means? It is a poorly outlined scenario, when we have to resort to guessing to figure out what would really happen.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
User avatar
wolveraptor
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4042
Joined: 2004-12-18 06:09pm

Post by wolveraptor »

Well I'm waiting for DEATH to correct it.
"If one needed proof that a guitar was more than wood and string, that a song was more than notes and words, and that a man could be more than a name and a few faded pictures, then Robert Johnson’s recordings were all one could ask for."

- Herb Bowie, Reason to Rock
User avatar
Zero
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2023
Joined: 2005-05-02 10:55pm
Location: Trying to find the divide between real memories and false ones.

Post by Zero »

Oh, great and mysterious DEATH, giver of knowledge, may we know whether these alien beings will give laws that would be deemed fair and righteous by the majority of humans, or would they be overprotective douchebags, making the act of going 120 miles per hour in a 40 zone on a dam near a school an act worthy of a mindwipe?
So long, and thanks for all the fish
User avatar
Zero
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2023
Joined: 2005-05-02 10:55pm
Location: Trying to find the divide between real memories and false ones.

Post by Zero »

Another thought that many of us haven't considered is that in many of the undeveloped areas of the world, religion is something they cling to with ferocity... isn't it entirely possible that those 3rd world folks that this situation would actually aid may choose to go to the other earth? I mean, I'd like to think that survival instincts typically outweigh that shit, but some people gave enough of a fuck about religion over life in the past to do some pretty messed up shit.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
User avatar
The Grim Squeaker
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10315
Joined: 2005-06-01 01:44am
Location: A different time-space Continuum
Contact:

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Zero132132 wrote:Oh, great and mysterious DEATH, giver of knowledge, may we know whether these alien beings will give laws that would be deemed fair and righteous by the majority of humans, or would they be overprotective douchebags, making the act of going 120 miles per hour in a 40 zone on a dam near a school an act worthy of a mindwipe?
I TELL THEE THAT THEY SHALL BE RIGHTEOUS, LIBERAL AND LIGHT HANDED IN THEIR TREATMENT OF US, RELYING ALSO ON THE JUDGEMENT OF THE HUMAN WHOM THEY HAF RAISED TO COSMIC AWARENESS WITH KNOWLEDGE OF ALL HUMAITYS HISTORY TO MAKE SURE THAT HIS UNDERSTANDING OF THINE MORALITY IS MODERN AND LIBERAL AS ANY OF US WOULD JUDGE .
Photography
Genius is always allowed some leeway, once the hammer has been pried from its hands and the blood has been cleaned up.
To improve is to change; to be perfect is to change often.
User avatar
Zero
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2023
Joined: 2005-05-02 10:55pm
Location: Trying to find the divide between real memories and false ones.

Post by Zero »

In that case, fuck it. These aliens sound chill. But I'd want to talk to one of them. Not as a condition of anything, just to see what's up.
So long, and thanks for all the fish
AniThyng
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2771
Joined: 2003-09-08 12:47pm
Location: Took an arrow in the knee.
Contact:

Post by AniThyng »

Isn't this similar to asking a native if they would give up thier culture and society for western colonialism? The arguement that the west is "superior" has some merit, and so does the arguement that we should not let others make progress for us is similar to the arguement against interfering in local customs too much, and it's hard to argue that the colonial intentions were not selfish and they might not be trustworthy in any case..
I do know how to spell
AniThyng is merely the name I gave to what became my favourite Baldur's Gate II mage character :P
Post Reply