Neocelts, neopagans etc? Encounters?

[hawkwind]

Anyone encountered this phenomena?
There has been recently atack in my country motivated by "Odin worshiping" involving two atackers age of 16 and 17, one knife, one digital camera and victim of the same age. Incident was carried out in front doors of school all of them was going to.
All were members of different groups of LARP people (the ones playing live AD$D with wooden swords).

I just happen to be debating this thing on local server...do these people really dont understand that these religions have no continuity whatsoever into modern society?
Most of these concerns with concepts of "warior democracy society", is cruel,particularly selfish, rituals are bloody sacrifice (hanging (scandinavia), stabing, burning (celts), drowning in pools (germans), gutting, heart removal and so forth.

As much as I m biased against church of any sort, we might say that even todays "hate anyone else" major religions are fairly softer than they used to be in past. They must be, otherwise they wont be tolerable in modern society, but there is not continuity in western paganism in last 1000 years whatsoever???

Opinions?

[Akhlut]

I've encountered some neopagans in my life and most of them aren't actually too keen on blood sacrifice. As their name implies, they're new pagans, not the pagans of old. While some psychotic people will still engage in blood sacrifices, there are also some psychotic Muslims who will blow themselves up in the name of Allah and some psychotic Christians who will shoot doctors who perform abortions. Most of the neopagans I know of, in fact, stress the nonviolence of their religion and engage in metaphorical sacrifice instead of real sacrifice.

Also, most pagans I know of seem more like hippies to me than fascists. That is to say, they're extremely pacifistic and just want to live in their own communes, free from government interference and involvement. That being said, it might be completely different here in the United States than it is in the Czech Republic.

[hawkwind]

Well to put it frankly it is the thing unheard of here and it is said that atackers had serious psychics problems apart of everything else.

I know that most of these people is like hippie style, my concern is whatever they know that real paganism was brutal, bloody, selfish and so forth.
If they know, what is the base for turning it into pacifist hippe style?

Do they understand the difference or not.
Where is the break? Romantism, Nietsche, 60-ties??

Jaroslav

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

From what I've seen of some major neopagan sects, more of them are likely to be termed "fluffy bunnies" than they are to be knife-wielding murderers. And yes, paganism as it stands today bears little more than a superficial resemblance to the ancient pagan traditions as we, as archeologists, understand them. This is especially true in the light that modern paganism is an amalagation of a number of ancient mythologies.

There are those who take their neopagan faiths seriously (and I'm almost certain they'll be around shortly to properly school us all in regards to that,) and then there are those who dabble in it because it's cool, or shocking, or whatever vaucous reasoning of the day applies. The latter are the fluffy-bunnies and nominal members of a number of fringe teenage social groups. And yes, I suspect that those who don't take it seriously are more likely to ignore the spuriousness of the link between modern paganism and the ancient pagan beliefs that modern paganism is inspired by.

[Akhlut]

Well to put it frankly it is the thing unheard of here and it is said that atackers had serious psychics problems apart of everything else.

I know that most of these people is like hippie style, my concern is whatever they know that real paganism was brutal, bloody, selfish and so forth.
If they know, what is the base for turning it into pacifist hippe style?

Do they understand the difference or not.
Where is the break? Romantism, Nietsche, 60-ties??

Jaroslav

Whenever I find various Wiccan/Pagan/Whatever sites on the internet, most of them seem to think that they are an unbroken tradition spanning back into the mists of history. So, I don't think most of them actually understand that the original versions of these religions understand the violence involved.

Except for the Asatru. I get the sense that the new worshippers of the Norse gods actually know something about how violent the old religion was. I think that might be due to everyone knowing about the Vikings and their favored pastime of plundering, though.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Except for the Asatru. I get the sense that the new worshippers of the Norse gods actually know something about how violent the old religion was. I think that might be due to everyone knowing about the Vikings and their favored pastime of plundering, though.

That, and we have fairly good first-hand records of Norse mythology and culture due to their relatively recent place in history, the fact that they had a system of writing, and the fact that they interacted extensively with other relatively recent cultures.

[hawkwind]

Wait, is there any continuous tradition for old scandinavian religion in last 1000 years?

I thought the north was eventually christianised?
And I would not expect to survive anything more that traditionall superstition after 900 yeras of christianisation....

Isnt modern Asatru way to "contribute ancestral heritage or something?

No offense to anyone, here in czech are mostly atheists and that for very long time. ( O.K. lots of christians was here, but it is said they were "mild" if you understand, that with general worldview of my people is not surprising.

Jaroslav

[General Zod]

Wait, is there any continuous tradition for old scandinavian religion in last 1000 years?

I thought the north was eventually christianised?
And I would not expect to survive anything more that traditionall superstition after 900 yeras of christianisation....

Isnt modern Asatru way to "contribute ancestral heritage or something?

No offense to anyone, here in czech are mostly atheists and that for very long time. ( O.K. lots of christians was here, but it is said they were "mild" if you understand, that with general worldview of my people is not surprising.

Jaroslav

While not specifically NeoPagan, you should visit this little website.

[lawine]

Well, the old asatruists were not neccesarily "violent" in a bad way. That is to say, no killing of unbelievers and so on, though this ofcourse differed per group and so on, (for instance sacrifices were made to Nerthus, though wether these sacrifices were innocents or not is not really known). Remember, these people were democratic (most of the Asatru tribes had a system of democracy in place), and women were considered to be the wiser gender and certainly not opressed like they were in later christianity.

Needlessly to say, all ages have violence and injustice, things that seemed perfectly normal centuries ago would be morally reprehensible today. But we can't just view the past with our modern day goggles.

The last country to convert to christianity was i believe sweden somewhere in the 12th or 13th century, but the practice was never truly banned with the rituals occuring in secret.

I wouldn't call it's old form a violent one, not like other religions like christianity were, where you could get killed for disbelieving. The violence was more of a political thing. (yes, the vikings are often cited as an example of the violence, but these were really a late part of the history, and represent only one cultural group).

Certainly many traditions (including the names of the days in our week) have survived until modern times. (just look at christmas or easter. think they're christian? think again.)

Modern asatruists seem to generally recognize that much information has been lost to history due to unfortunate events (including the forced conversion of europe), but they focus on what they do know, which is a surprising lot. They seem like a fine bunch to me. I myself am an atheist but i do identify partly with the asatru culture that existed in my country, as my heritage. It is unfortunate that white supremacists have usurped the symbols and such of the asatruists, as asatruists themselves are not racists. gives em a bad name.

[wolveraptor]

Do you get to choose a kickass Norse name? Like, "Balrik the Betrayer" or something? Man that would rule.

I always figured that the Norse culture encouraged violence and badassery, and that the religion just grew to enforce that, because that was what was important for a Viking soldier. It really helps spur you on to victory when you know that Valhalla awaits you in death.

[Metatwaddle]

While not specifically NeoPagan, you should visit this little website.

Damn you, I was going to link there. It's a fun site. It also lambasts the persecution complex many of them have - I love the comic where a Wiccan girl and a Christian guy are talking, and the Wiccan girl is all, "I am a self-empowered pagan womyn!" and the guy, who's from Campus Youth, offers the Wiccan girl a cookie and she screams "I DON'T WANT YOUR OPPRESSIVE COOKIES!" Fun stuff.

I only know one Wiccan well, and we haven't talked much about her religion but she's apparently an "ecletic Kemetic Wiccan," which means she worships some Egyptian gods and I forget what else. She seems to be into fortune telling and other unscientific crap. There are probably more sensible Wiccans out there, I just haven't met them yet.

[Broomstick]

Anyone encountered this phenomena?
There has been recently atack in my country motivated by "Odin worshiping" involving two atackers age of 16 and 17, one knife, one digital camera and victim of the same age.

Yes, young teenage males do Bad Things in all countries. We have had attacks of various sorts blamed on any number things, including D&D, Satanism, various other cults and sects, and video games.

I just happen to be debating this thing on local server...do these people really dont understand that these religions have no continuity whatsoever into modern society?
Most of these concerns with concepts of "warior democracy society", is cruel,particularly selfish, rituals are bloody sacrifice (hanging (scandinavia), stabing, burning (celts), drowning in pools (germans), gutting, heart removal and so forth.

Many dabblers in the occult/paganism/secret societies are naive and ill-formed both of what they are getting into in the present as well as unsavory past history of one or another group.

Some more mature people may be involved in these matters with better knowledge of the past and more sense about what they get involved with in the present.

but there is not continuity in western paganism in last 1000 years whatsoever???

There MAY be long-term continuity in certain practices/beliefs in Iceland, or among the Italian Strega cult, and perhaps one or two others - but they are not "pure" in any sense and much diminished from what they used to be, if there actually is a direct connection.

I've encountered some neopagans in my life and most of them aren't actually too keen on blood sacrifice. As their name implies, they're new pagans, not the pagans of old.

The dominant/majority neopagan group in the US at present is Wicca (in all its many variants). Wicca pretty much forbids any bloodshed whatsoever, and many, if not most, groups forbid any sort of bloodwork. I've encountered Wiccas who won't even permit menstruating women into their ritual circles, although that is a little more extreme a position than most. Dianic Wiccas do sometimes celebrate menstruation, including the blood associated with it, but do not shed blood through human action.
There are a few neopagans who either permit or condone ritual bloodletting, but they aren't too common.

Voudoun (Voodoo) and Santerians do practice animal sacrifice, but they aren't neopagans in the usual sense of the word - their practices go back to (mostly) Ife in West Africa with some admixture of other African traditions and a heavy syncretism with Catholicism. Ife is still widely practiced in Nigeria and Ghana, and animal sacrifice is essential to some of its practices. Those two religions are really the only two I'm aware of in North America with a legitimate claim to a centuries/millenia old polytheistic tradition. I think, however, it would be highly unlikely to encounter a group of practicing Voundounists, Santerians, or Ife in the Czech Republic.

While some psychotic people will still engage in blood sacrifices, there are also some psychotic Muslims who will blow themselves up in the name of Allah and some psychotic Christians who will shoot doctors who perform abortions.

And really, this IS a key point - the psychos will not hesistate to blame their crimes on whatever excuse comes to hand.

I know that most of these people is like hippie style, my concern is whatever they know that real paganism was brutal, bloody, selfish and so forth.

Some do, some don't.

If they know, what is the base for turning it into pacifist hippe style?

Dissatisfaction with Christianity, with monotheism, wanting to find a religion/way of live "more in tune with nature" (however that's defined), and probably a bunch of other reasons I can't think of off the top of my head.

I will say that neopaganism as practiced in, say, 1975 was considerably less "fluffy-bunny" than a lot of "Wiccanism" these days. Practices have changed over time. I think a lot of young dabblers want to dabble in the occult for the (illusion) of power it gives them, but they also want their fun to be safe and ultimately harmless. Well, I've always had the stance that if something's strong enough to help you, it's strong enough to hurt you and if there are no side effects you're probably dealing with a placebo rather than something actually potent. But that's me.

Do they understand the difference or not.

Some do, some don't.

Where is the break? Romantism, Nietsche, 60-ties??

Today's neopagansim has it's roots in the early 20th Century in England. It jumped the Atlantic to the US in the early 1960's where it has taken root and further mutated/diversified.

There are those who take their neopagan faiths seriously (and I'm almost certain they'll be around shortly to properly school us all in regards to that,)

Quite likely. As unlikely as it may seem there are a couple neopagans on SD.net.

and then there are those who dabble in it because it's cool, or shocking, or whatever vaucous reasoning of the day applies.

More like a bunch of mewling little brats giving their own religion a bad name... but then every faith has it's dysfunctional members. Hell, there are even dysfuntional atheists.

Except for the Asatru. I get the sense that the new worshippers of the Norse gods actually know something about how violent the old religion was. I think that might be due to everyone knowing about the Vikings and their favored pastime of plundering, though.

That, and we have fairly good first-hand records of Norse mythology and culture due to their relatively recent place in history, the fact that they had a system of writing, and the fact that they interacted extensively with other relatively recent cultures.

Nope, a written history and well-documented facts is no obstacle to a neopagan determined to cook up some sort of new age bullshit. I could go into more detail, but this post will be lengthy enough.

Do you get to choose a kickass Norse name? Like, "Balrik the Betrayer" or something? Man that would rule.

Naming conventions vary between one neopagan group and another, so you can't say for certain. Although I really, really doubt someone who truly subscribed to asatru beliefs would take a name like "Betrayer".

I always figured that the Norse culture encouraged violence and badassery, and that the religion just grew to enforce that, because that was what was important for a Viking soldier. It really helps spur you on to victory when you know that Valhalla awaits you in death.

I'm sure if I'm wrong on this someone will correct me, but the warrior Vikings were only a subset of Norsemen, the majority of which were famers/hunters/traders and the like. Sure, they had a war-like streak, but in a place like Iceland or Greenland even the warriors had to devote a substantial amount of time and resources to pulling a living out of the land (and in Greenland they eventually failed to do so and died out). Warriors might venerate Odin and hope for Valhalla, but if I recall the cult of Thor was actually more popular with the average Norseman.

I only know one Wiccan well, and we haven't talked much about her religion but she's apparently an "ecletic Kemetic Wiccan," which means she worships some Egyptian gods and I forget what else.

Most likely, follows basically Wicca rituals and beliefs using Egyptian deity names and trappings, with bits of whatever else apeals to her thrown in.

There are probably more sensible Wiccans out there, I just haven't met them yet.

>cough<

It could be you've met them, but haven't identified them as Wiccans or neopagans or what have you. The more sensible/mature sorts tend to attract less attention by being considerably less obnoxious than the loud fluff-bunny wannabes.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

That's pretty accurate, Broomstick--and of course you're the expert--but I would note for the record that there are some groups which could have been behind this--namely, Asatru worshippers often include Neo-Nazi types who get caught up in the associations of Nordic paganism and the Third Reich. If I was going to believe that these youths were serious in any sort of pagan beliefs I'd say they were caught up in some sort of Asatru group with strong Neo-Nazi inclinations.

There are, of course, perfectly legitimate Asatru organizations, but certainly some of them with the above associations do exist.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I always figured that the Norse culture encouraged violence and badassery, and that the religion just grew to enforce that, because that was what was important for a Viking soldier. It really helps spur you on to victory when you know that Valhalla awaits you in death.

There weren't viking "Soldiers", there were warriors. You'd go follow your chieftan, loot/pilliage for six months or a year, and then come home. Or maybe, you'd find some land you liked and then set up a farm and become a chieftan yourself. There were very few "fanatical" vikings doing the fighting, for most of them it was a means to an end in a part of the world where the growing season is only 4 months long. It encouraged tough, hardy living and few mistakes, but more expediency than violence.

[Spoonist]

I always figured that the Norse culture encouraged violence and badassery, and that the religion just grew to enforce that, because that was what was important for a Viking soldier. It really helps spur you on to victory when you know that Valhalla awaits you in death.

There weren't viking "Soldiers", there were warriors. You'd go follow your chieftan, loot/pilliage for six months or a year, and then come home. Or maybe, you'd find some land you liked and then set up a farm and become a chieftan yourself. There were very few "fanatical" vikings doing the fighting, for most of them it was a means to an end in a part of the world where the growing season is only 4 months long. It encouraged tough, hardy living and few mistakes, but more expediency than violence.

There where plenty of Viking soldiers.
It was quite common in the later viking era to rent mercenary vikings to protect you from plundering vikings. Usually if it was southern (danish) vikings who plundered you then you'd rent northern (norwegian or swedish) for protection. and vice versa.
During the conquest of normandy they had standing "armies" which usually denotes soldiers...

Also your description fits most european cultures of the era. With the only difference of the vikings for a period of time being the most successful one at it.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Huscarls are soldiers, Vikings were warriors. The word warrior has lots of connotations about a lack of professionalism and discipline and emphasis on personal combat. Soldier implies discipline and professionalism.

[wolveraptor]

Warriors might venerate Odin and hope for Valhalla, but if I recall the cult of Thor was actually more popular with the average Norseman.

Yes, he was the god of not only thunder, but of the common farmer.

Naming conventions vary between one neopagan group and another, so you can't say for certain. Although I really, really doubt someone who truly subscribed to asatru beliefs would take a name like "Betrayer".

I officially dub myself, "Balthur the Badass".

Fuck yeah.

[Spoonist]

Anyone encountered this phenomena?

Yes.

All were members of different groups of LARP people (the ones playing live AD$D with wooden swords).

LARP usually use soft rubber/latex swords so that you can have actual fights.
If it would be wooden swords then you'd see a lot less LARP people very soon...

I just happen to be debating this thing on local server...do these people really dont understand that these religions have no continuity whatsoever into modern society?

Usually they don't and that is the whole point.
They are reviving a part of history because of a romanticised memory remains.
Just like any other religions/philosophies.

They must be, otherwise they wont be tolerable in modern society, but there is not continuity in western paganism in last 1000 years whatsoever???

Paganism has existed in europe throughout those 1000years and more.
But you are right about the discontinuity though. There is no continous tradition that survived. But there are several traditions and events that have remained and more that has had shorter revivals from time to time.
Christmas for instance is filled with those 'pagan' traditions for example.

I know that most of these people is like hippie style, my concern is whatever they know that real paganism was brutal, bloody, selfish and so forth.
If they know, what is the base for turning it into pacifist hippe style?

All of the major religions used to be "brutal, bloody, selfish and so forth" in the old days.
Since society and the culture of that day was "brutal, bloody, selfish and so forth"...
People know that for a fact but still claim that they follow the same religion as then.
This is just as true for judaism, christianity and hinduism as it is for asatru, druidism etc.

Isnt modern Asatru way to "contribute ancestral heritage or something?

If you are talking scandinavia then yes, its about the cultural heritage as much as anything.
But in mainland europe its more usual to find people with neonazi beliefs who have read too much about the SS who idolized the 'warrior culture' of the old germanic/celtic religions.

Well, the old asatruists were not neccesarily "violent" in a bad way. That is to say, no killing of unbelievers and so on, though this ofcourse differed per group and so on, (for instance sacrifices were made to Nerthus, though wether these sacrifices were innocents or not is not really known). Remember, these people were democratic (most of the Asatru tribes had a system of democracy in place), and women were considered to be the wiser gender and certainly not opressed like they were in later christianity.

Well it was common for the eastern vikings based in what is now sweden to go east for thralls (slaves) which where brought home. It was also common with human sacrifice.
If you add those two facts together it should follow that slaves where also used for sacrifice.

The last country to convert to christianity was i believe sweden somewhere in the 12th or 13th century, but the practice was never truly banned with the rituals occuring in secret.

Sweden was much slower to convert but then the old practice of asatru where brutally fought down. In norway the old traditions where followed side by side with the new for much longer.
There are some beautiful norwegian churches where you can find norse gods in the attic who where worshipped in secret. Sort of betting on all players.
If I remember correctly though the last prosecuted case of asatry was in Denmark in the 15th century.

Do you get to choose a kickass Norse name? Like, "Balrik the Betrayer" or something? Man that would rule.

Naming conventions vary between one neopagan group and another, so you can't say for certain. Although I really, really doubt someone who truly subscribed to asatru beliefs would take a name like "Betrayer".

Ah but we are talking about LARP people with loose connections to paganism if any at all so a Thofir Twobeard wouldn't be out of the question.

I always figured that the Norse culture encouraged violence and badassery, and that the religion just grew to enforce that, because that was what was important for a Viking soldier. It really helps spur you on to victory when you know that Valhalla awaits you in death.

I'm sure if I'm wrong on this someone will correct me, but the warrior Vikings were only a subset of Norsemen, the majority of which were famers/hunters/traders and the like. Sure, they had a war-like streak, but in a place like Iceland or Greenland even the warriors had to devote a substantial amount of time and resources to pulling a living out of the land (and in Greenland they eventually failed to do so and died out). Warriors might venerate Odin and hope for Valhalla, but if I recall the cult of Thor was actually more popular with the average Norseman.

Why most vikings did revere Thor over Odin was that Thor generally didn't need/want sacrifice instead a righteus living and that Odin was considered to expect a price for his help regardless.
During the christening it also became important with a symbol for asatru and the hammer became that symbol which increased thors standing among the populace.

[Spoonist]

Huscarls are soldiers, Vikings were warriors. The word warrior has lots of connotations about a lack of professionalism and discipline and emphasis on personal combat. Soldier implies discipline and professionalism.

Which is exactly why Vikings did have soldiers.

Lets sort it out here shall we?

Most vikings where raised and behaved with a WARRIOR mindset but some of them became SOLDIERS in regular army units and with long careers of fighting other ARMIES.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Which is exactly why Vikings did have soldiers.

That is impossible, as the term "Viking" refers to a raider who operated in a disorganized band for plunder. By definition Vikings cannot have soldiers--Vikings are people, and warriors, to boot.

Lets sort it out here shall we?

Yes, let's correct your ignorance.

Most vikings where raised and behaved with a WARRIOR mindset but some of them became SOLDIERS in regular army units and with long careers of fighting other ARMIES.

Warriors can fight armies, they just usually lose. They can even form armies, it's just that disorganized masses of men form a bad army, which again usually loses.

A Viking who joined a regular military unit--the Varangian Guard or the Anglo-Saxon Huscarls--would no longer be a Viking, because the word "Viking" refers to a specific occupation, namely, as pirates and raiders.

[hawkwind]

Spoonist - they use wooden swords in my country. Its bit rough down here......

People who take it more seriously go to fencing school and use steel ones. (Which is historical fencing and livinghistory)

I m member of this society:
http://www.skjaldborg.livinghistory.cz/

Anyway

Where exactly is this 1000 years of paganism?

You are speaking about import of religious superstition, but thats not something which actually suplly whole religion.
Pagan traditions in Christianity are interesting, but understandable, as christians tended to absorb local customs rather than banish them. That was also key to succes....