No Athiests in Foxholes

[Lagmonster]

Of course if using the term "for god's sake" is indicative to certain people that you really aren't religious, then I wonder how they would interpret the term "god dammnit" (which I admit I occasionally use).

I naturally use phrases like that, too. But of course, atheists literally mean "God damn this thing" about as literally as they mean, "Fuck that shit". As in, not at all, unless you're about to stick your cock in a turd.

[Zornhau]

I prefer "God's Teeth!", but must confess that I use it in homage to King Richard I whose favourite curse it was, rather than out of any deist beliefs.

[Nub]

...which means essentially that soldiers who claim to be athiests are usually caught praying or crying out to god when under some sort of attack.

As Lone_Prodigy showed in that short piece from Fallen Angels it would seem just as likely for a soldier to turn the exact opposite way.

I can imagine a rather hectic mix of emotions while in the foxhole and under fire. The natural reaction for your mind is to find something that could possibly calm things down. Praying is one option, while another would be shifting to numbness. Fully believing that God would save your life would be quite a comfort. Delving into your mind and accepting that the only thing to get you out of this is yourself, while slightly less warming, would also in most cases calm the mind as you realize that getting your ass in main gear is the necessary approach here.

Either that or fully accepting that the situation is futile and falling into a sense of mindlessness. It seems to me that it would truly depend on the person's mind, and how they think and solve problems.

At least, that's what I imagine. I am not really expert on the human mind.

[Ryushikaze]

I'm involved in a discussion over at another board, and one of the other posters actually tried to use that line as an argument.

Needless to say, I was very appreciative of the links provided in this thread. I haven't seen his response yet (I just posted it), but from the other arguments he has been using (quoted Descartes's logic as an argument as well), I doubt it will actually make an impression.

[K. A. Pital]

"No atheists in foxholes" is one of the total BS arguments that people spout out trying to squash with "the obvious", which is in fact an obvious lie.

My mother's line predecessors were atheists and soldiers.

I don't know how about foxholes, but I doubt the Nazis were giving them easy time.

[Battlehymn Republic]

Isn't the assertion similar to the quote by Edward Young, "By night, an atheist half believes in God." Of course, when I first read it I thought the quote was about the fear of existential dread or darkness or ghosts or some crap.

The best sort of (non)religious war there is.

[Duckie]

I've always thought the easiest way to defeat the "No Atheists In Foxholes" thing is just to quip back "So the [pick one- Red Army or Soviets] didn't dig foxholes?"

Really, one has to reply to something so stupidly generalized and unfactual with a snappy but probably wrong quip (the falseness of the comeback being that despite Communist Party's official line, the Red Army probably was mostly composed of religious commoners).

Actually disproving the claim is even easier, but isn't nearly as satisfying as something like the above.

[wilfulton]

On a similar note, the majority of professional athletes are deeply superstitious. Does this mean that there must be some truth to the idea that you'll win if you don't wash your jockstrap, or any of the other myriad nonsense superstitious practices common in pro sports locker rooms?

emphasis mine: Actually, there is some truth to this, if your shit is so rancid it causes the other team's eyes to water, you have a definite advantage in your game (presumably your teammates would be used to the smell of their own jock straps).

For the OP, I'm an atheist, but as a cavalry scout, I don't sit in a foxhole and wait, I go to where there's shooting to be done. The fanatics willing to die for their god, A. Fared poorly against us "infidels" and B. Can't shoot worth shit.

[Macross]

Does anyone remember the Jessica Lynch Story? Early in the war, her convoy was attacked and everyone killed, she was the only survivor who was captured and later rescued by marines. The media portrayed her as some kind of hero... a tough and brave, 19 year old from America's heartland who fought valiantly to try and save her teammates... But as it turned out, she didn't fight, all she did was pray...

So, I would say "Yes, their are no atheists in foxholes, they are all on the line fighting and dieing while you cower and pray."

(No offense intended toward soldiers or the tactical value of a foxhole.)

[starhunter]

I agree that when times are very tough, when you fear the future - failure, poverty, death, for example, rational thinking and problem solving is difficult, and it is easy to sucumb to pure sentimentalism, or make quick rash decisions. Many who get themselves stuck in life's perverbial foxholes did not have the knowledge, sense, planning and resources to avoid them. They were responsible all along for their destiny, and they ended up in a place of great anxiety and fear. And they were ill equipped to begin with to deal with the situation, so they turned to irrational solutions, that turn out not to be solutions. It's up to them to learn from their mistakes and move on to a better life. Easier said than done, of course.

Thoughts?

[K. A. Pital]

starhunter

They were responsible all along for their destiny

That is wrong. How the hell a person who ended up homeless and seriously wounded, for example, because of a hurricane is "responsible" for being "stuck in life's perverbial foxholes"? There's always Chance. While humanity generally thinks that it holds it's destiny - and thus each individual holds his destiny - in their own hands, that's just a big mistake. Chance can't be ruled out. Before the power of Chance, which is hardly a bit rational, people tremble. Chance - or nature, or "general processes above individual human" are irrational, so people try to give it a meaning, to rationalize it by ascribing it a humanlike personality. That is how Gods are born. Of course, they are the same old Chance, but now against the irrational death- and trouble-maker Chance people put out the irrational belief in rational Gods. Not that it helps. But that's how it happens. That's how it works.