What Evil Lurks in the Hearts of Creationists?

[Dooey Jo]

After reading several pages worth of cut-and-pasted material from a creationist book, I started to wonder: How the fuck can they (the creationist book authors, not the C&P goons) bring themselves to write this stuff?

And I don't primarily mean the factual errors and misunderstanding of science, I can chalk that up to stupidity and ignorance (they might actually believe that shit). No, what I mean is something like this passage, supposedly said by someone at the university of Uppsala
"If a C-14 dating supports our theories, we will use it in the main text. If it doesn't completely go against the theories, we'll put it in a footnote. And if it is completely off, we'll simply ignore it."
The author goes on to claim that "many scientists still hold that opinion."

The thing is that no-one ever said that. It is a complete and utter lie, and there is simply no way that the author could not have known this, because he made it up. He knew that he was making up a lie with no thruth to it what-so-ever and still wrote it as it had actually happened, in the hopes of discrediting scientists. And this phenomenon isn't exactly rare in creationist litterature, either.


I'm wondering, do these people have no morals at all? Personally, I'm just too damned honest to be able to seriously claim something, which I knew was not true, like that. I just wouldn't be able to do it. And I am a godless heathen obviously void of morality. So how do these people think?

Do they perhaps think along the lines of "well, yes it is a total lie but I'll save souls for Jeebus so it's okay"? If so, how far of a stretch would it be to say that these people might actually justify anything, like say murder, in the same way?
(I should add that the C&P goon that pasted the stuff did at one point say that mass murder is preferable to criticism just for the sake of criticism)

[The Guid]

My guess is they all get together to discuss science. One will come up with this nineth hand story that he heard once, probably made up, likely exaggerated and certainly not a direct quote. Imagine a bunch of conpspiracy theorists together (hmmm... what is the collective noun of conspiracy theorists?). My guess is they all try and outwhackjob each other.

[Darth Wong]

I'm wondering, do these people have no morals at all?

Not when it comes to honesty. I've lost count of the number of people who claim to have done extensive research and turned out to have done nothing other than reading a few creationist websites.

You have to understand that they don't regard intellectual honesty as a particularly important virtue. To them, morality is all about praising God, and all other moral considerations are relatively insignificant.

[Count Dooku]

Not when it comes to honesty. I've lost count of the number of people who claim to have done extensive research and turned out to have done nothing other than reading a few creationist websites.

You have to understand that they don't regard intellectual honesty as a particularly important virtue. To them, morality is all about praising God, and all other moral considerations are relatively insignificant.

Exactly. To them, life is about pleasing the god that they are so terribly afraid of. To them, it's insane to even think about something as sinful as evolution, or science as a whole. It's too bad too - they're missing out on a great and wonderous world.

[NecronLord]

Remember, in their minds, the Bible (or Qu'ran, or whatever) is pre-eminent. It is the absolute source of all morality. This is, among protestants especially, a very strongly held view.

Incidentally, it's the reason the Catholics don't hold to creationism. They believe in 'other sources of revalation' (IOW, what the Church says) and so they don't fear this:

If any part of the bible is proven untrue, then the moral teachings therein will be voided, as the bible would be errant on one point, and therefore possibly errant on all points. They cannot concieve of morality without God, and therefore to them, either the bible is completely inerrant, or there is no reason they shouldn't eat children and rape babies.

Scary stuff, no?

[Base Delta Zero]

It's possible that they simply write what they think[/] scientists believe, credit it in an ambigous manner, and don't really consider it a lie, because, after all, they all believe that, they just won't come out an admit it.

Of course, it's possible some at the top actually realize exactly what they're doing, and may not even believe everything they say - they may intend to simply use fundamentalism as vessel for gaining power.

how far of a stretch would it be to say that these people might actually justify anything, like say murder, in the same way?

It is not a very big stretch at all, there are people who have advocated murder for all sorts of insane reasons... most aren't taken very seriously, but...

[Zero]

What I don't understand is, why would they blatently lie if they actually believed their position was true? I mean, not caring a lot about honesty I can almost see, but if they have to make up information to support their argument, don't they know that it's really not the position most genuinely supported by the facts? I mean, I don't see how you could consciously choose to do something that contradicts your claim that the position you're taking is actually true, and lying about it certainly seems to be that... it's just mind-boggling.

[Guardsman Bass]

I'm wondering, do these people have no morals at all?

Not when it comes to honesty. I've lost count of the number of people who claim to have done extensive research and turned out to have done nothing other than reading a few creationist websites.

You have to understand that they don't regard intellectual honesty as a particularly important virtue. To them, morality is all about praising God, and all other moral considerations are relatively insignificant.

The "Lying for the Lord" mentality (One of the General Authorities in the Mormon Church actually gave a speech about it). Unfortunately, that's the problem with a religion that believes that everyone is a pawn piece in a battle between God and the Devil, where one side is defined is the absolute good. The pawns of God start to think that, since they are on the right side, anything they do to the wrong side 'must' be moral, since they are doing it in the name of Goodness.

[Darth Wong]

They actually call it "spiritual warfare". With that kind of rhetoric, it seems almost comical to think they might be dissuaded by compunctions about dishonesty as a tactic.

[Zero]

How do they actually manage to believe their own position if they're forced to actively lie to win a debate?

[Count Dooku]

How do they actually manage to believe their own position if they're forced to actively lie to win a debate?

If it's in the name of god, anything is justifyable.

[Zero]

How do they actually manage to believe their own position if they're forced to actively lie to win a debate?

If it's in the name of god, anything is justifyable.

But if you actively make something up, you know it isn't true, and if you're forced to support your argument with things that aren't true... how is it that they simply don't make the connection that they're position simply isn't rational? Blarg... fundies are fucking nuts...

[Lord of the Abyss]

How do they actually manage to believe their own position if they're forced to actively lie to win a debate?

Well, they probably don't think they are lying. They think the scientists are lying, or deluded by Satan. They think "If I report what scientists are saying, the weak in faith won't realize it's wrong. So, I'll say something that supports the truth; since I know it's true, it's not lying; I'm simply preventing the scientists/Devil from deceiving anybody else !"

[Darth Wong]

But if you actively make something up, you know it isn't true, and if you're forced to support your argument with things that aren't true... how is it that they simply don't make the connection that they're position simply isn't rational? Blarg... fundies are fucking nuts...

They don't care if it's logical. Do you know how many fundies I've run into who tell me that my use of logic is actually the biggest weakness in my argument? God, according to their worldview, doesn't have to obey logic. This allows them to literally contradict themselves without any concerns, because they follow God, and hence they don't have to obey logic either. They need only humour those who think logic means something.

[Zero]

They don't care if it's logical. Do you know how many fundies I've run into who tell me that my use of logic is actually the biggest weakness in my argument? God, according to their worldview, doesn't have to obey logic. This allows them to literally contradict themselves without any concerns, because they follow God, and hence they don't have to obey logic either. They need only humour those who think logic means something.

I'm not entirely sure I can understand that. To me, admitting that your position is irrational is basically admitting that it's wrong. I just don't see how someone can understand that reality isn't on their side, and still believe that they're right.

It has to arise from the early conditioning towards simply never questioning anything out of the bible, or questioning the existance of God. I still remember my mother screaming at me when I was three because I had asked her how we really knew that God exists, and that the universe hasn't just always been here...

Aparently, it's all about being taught from an early age to actively deny anything that questions God's existance without thought... that's a wee bit horrifying.

[Count Dooku]

They don't care if it's logical. Do you know how many fundies I've run into who tell me that my use of logic is actually the biggest weakness in my argument? God, according to their worldview, doesn't have to obey logic. This allows them to literally contradict themselves without any concerns, because they follow God, and hence they don't have to obey logic either. They need only humour those who think logic means something.

Indeed. Christians try to rationalize this by saying that eveything they do is in the name of god, and they did no wrong; and if they ever admit that they did wrong, they claim that god will forgive them for anywrong doing because it was all done in his name - or something to that effect.

Christians terrify me, not because I'm afraid of religion, but because I'm horrified that any human being could act in such an irrational manner.

[Covenant]

They don't care if it's logical. Do you know how many fundies I've run into who tell me that my use of logic is actually the biggest weakness in my argument? God, according to their worldview, doesn't have to obey logic. This allows them to literally contradict themselves without any concerns, because they follow God, and hence they don't have to obey logic either. They need only humour those who think logic means something.

Indeed. Christians try to rationalize this by saying that eveything they do is in the name of god, and they did no wrong; and if they ever admit that they did wrong, they claim that god will forgive them for anywrong doing because it was all done in his name - or something to that effect.

Christians terrify me, not because I'm afraid of religion, but because I'm horrified that any human being could act in such an irrational manner.

This is a problem that cuts across all faiths. Hindu fundamentalists did their share of damage to the Muslims, and vice versa, during the partition of India. People act in all sorts of irrational manners anyway. Not to take a pot-shot, but you were the one who was supporting steroids in that other article. To us, that seems irrational. To you, it obviously seemed a much more nuanced issue. Now, I'm not a moral relativist, but what is 'reasonable' and 'rational' depends on what you believe to be the foundation of fact. They're working from the concept that the entire world is a devious ploy to tempt them into disbeliving the urgency of their moral duty. Occam's razor doesn't even know where to start cutting with that one.

But don't just say this group or that group can do this. It has nothing to do about what faith you're a member of--you can be a zealot for any cause. But there are few causes like religion that tell you that the entire world is a facade for a war between perfect good and perfect evil. As we've seen with people like Traviss, the suck-up impulse of humans is strong. A lot of people can't resist that smug better-than-you feeling of allying themself with someone who has the "right idea" more than anyone else. They'll defend their 3 million clone number and throw back death threats. And that's just a second-rate novelist. Imagine the appeal for these same would-be bootlickers to suck up to the One Almighty Bestower of Truth.

Consider the Bible a retcon.

[Count Dooku]

Not to take a pot-shot, but you were the one who was supporting steroids in that other article. To us, that seems irrational. To you, it obviously seemed a much more nuanced issue.

That was me. I NEVER said that steroids were safe to use, I just pointed out that they were not the killer drugs that everyone portrays them as. Everyone failed to take that into account. Statistically speaking, steroids are just about the safest illegal drug in America, and are far safer than either drugs or tobacco, which we all know to be legal. But, I don't want to turn this into a thread about that.

I do suppose that you were right: rationality is an idea, and can change from person to person.

[DPDarkPrimus]

"If a C-14 dating supports our theories, we will use it in the main text. If it doesn't completely go against the theories, we'll put it in a footnote. And if it is completely off, we'll simply ignore it."
The author goes on to claim that "many scientists still hold that opinion."

The thing is that no-one ever said that. It is a complete and utter lie, and there is simply no way that the author could not have known this, because he made it up. He knew that he was making up a lie with no thruth to it what-so-ever and still wrote it as it had actually happened, in the hopes of discrediting scientists. And this phenomenon isn't exactly rare in creationist litterature, either.

He doesn't need a quote of that. He believes that's what scientists actually do. And since the scientists are working for Satan, obviously they do oppress any findings that contradict their evil atheistic teachings. Therefore, he doesn't need a quote- he knows it's the truth.

Of course, it isn't. But that doesn't make any difference to those sort of people- to those sorts, what they believe to be real is reality.

[Spetulhu]

"If a C-14 dating supports our theories, we will use it in the main text. If it doesn't completely go against the theories, we'll put it in a footnote. And if it is completely off, we'll simply ignore it."

The thing is that no-one ever said that.

He doesn't need a quote of that. He believes that's what scientists actually do. And since the scientists are working for Satan, obviously they do oppress any findings that contradict their evil atheistic teachings. Therefore, he doesn't need a quote- he knows it's the truth.

Of course, it isn't. But that doesn't make any difference to those sort of people- to those sorts, what they believe to be real is reality.

And if enough people believe it's real it will become real! Scientists can say whatever they want but everyone knows they're lying.

[Darth Servo]

After reading several pages worth of cut-and-pasted material from a creationist book, I started to wonder: How the fuck can they (the creationist book authors, not the C&P goons) bring themselves to write this stuff?

THAT is the power of life long indoctrination.

The thing is that no-one ever said that. It is a complete and utter lie, and there is simply no way that the author could not have known this, because he made it up. He knew that he was making up a lie with no thruth to it what-so-ever and still wrote it as it had actually happened, in the hopes of discrediting scientists. And this phenomenon isn't exactly rare in creationist litterature, either.

The retard in question admitted he made it up? Personally I would have chalked up a statement like that to "something the preacher said" or "someone in Bible study said" or "some creationist website said" all of which heard it from someone else who heard it from someone else ect and gets changed a little every time.

I'm wondering, do these people have no morals at all? Personally, I'm just too damned honest to be able to seriously claim something, which I knew was not true, like that. I just wouldn't be able to do it. And I am a godless heathen obviously void of morality. So how do these people think?

It happens when ever someone fanatically devotes themselves to a side of an issue without doing the research first. It happens with rabid trekkies, it happens with creationists, it happens with moon landing hoax idiots. In the case of creationists, they really DO believe evolution is from the devil and so anything is justified in the fight against it.

Do they perhaps think along the lines of "well, yes it is a total lie but I'll save souls for Jeebus so it's okay"? If so, how far of a stretch would it be to say that these people might actually justify anything, like say murder, in the same way?

Not much. See the brutality of the dark ages.

(I should add that the C&P goon that pasted the stuff did at one point say that mass murder is preferable to criticism just for the sake of criticism)

I think you just answered your own question.

[CarsonPalmer]

Count Dooku, I believe it is unfair to lump all Christians in with fundamentalists, as that fails to take into account some of the more liberal churches.

[Junghalli]

But if you actively make something up, you know it isn't true, and if you're forced to support your argument with things that aren't true... how is it that they simply don't make the connection that they're position simply isn't rational?

Some of them may very well make that connection, but the idea that their fanatically held beliefs could be wrong is simply too scary to them. They know or at least suspect deep down they're wrong, but they'll never admit it, even to themselves.