A conversation with a fundamentalist

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

User avatar
Spoonist
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2405
Joined: 2002-09-20 11:15am

Post by Spoonist »

->OP
It is much easier to let them define their faith first before you start attacking pieces of it. Otherwise you will fall into the not a real Scotsman excuse. This since no Christian that I’ve met so far have the exact same belief, they all pick and chose the bits and pieces they like. So if you point out flaws in Christianity as a whole they can honestly say that it doesn’t apply to them, but if you instead let them first define their faith then you can go and show the inconsistencies within their own faithbubble.
really don't thing you have any understanding of what god is.
God is omniscent
God is omnipotent
God is infalliable.
God can't be wrong and Christians believe he has never been wrong. Whether he killed some people makes no difference if he grants them eternal life in heaven. Byut really that doesn't matter because god is perfect, and the NT says forgiving.
God is not perfect. God is not omniscient. God is not omnipotent. God is not infallible. At least, that is if the bible is how we should measure god.
If you accept that god is perfect then you have to accept that the bible is imperfect/false in its description of god and if you do that then every Christian needs to define their own personal belief in what passages of the bible is true and what passages of the bible is false. (This is of course something which the denominations/churches dislikes strongly but what most Christians do anyway, i.e. selective reading.)

Example of an imperfect God from the first chapters of genesis: (there are plenty more)
NIV Genesis 2 wrote: 1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
The creation myth is based upon it taking time and work to do it. A perfect god would have created a perfect world. A perfect and omnipotent god would also not have to rest at all.
So if you as a Christian set faith into the biblical creation myth then you agree that god is not perfect.
NIV Genesis 5 wrote: 5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."
The whole flood myth is based upon god’s disappointment in his own creation. If god was not disappointed God would not have to flood the earth. You cannot be disappointed in your own creation if you are perfect.
So if you as a Christian set faith into the biblical flood myth then you agree that god is not perfect.
NIV Genesis 11 wrote: 5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."
8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel [c] —because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth.
The tower of Babel myth is based on god realising the potential of all humans united. A perfect god would have realised this from the beginning. A perfect and omniscient god would not create something which is not perfect. A perfect god wouldn’t have the need to stop the united humans.
So if you as a Christian set faith into the biblical Tower of Babel myth then you agree that god is not perfect.

And so on and so forth, suddenly there is not so many Christian myths left which does not contradict a perfect god. Which Christian scholars would be the first to point out.
Also it defies another base Christian creed. That Jesus had to die for our sins.
If god was perfect he would not have to let the Holy Ghost impregnate Mary to conceive a son so that he could then be crucified by men.
User avatar
God Fearing Atheist
Youngling
Posts: 103
Joined: 2006-03-25 07:41pm
Location: New England, USA
Contact:

Post by God Fearing Atheist »

Count Dooku wrote:
God Fearing Atheist wrote:Trinitarian christology is not something you'll find in the NT. The only unambiguious cases of Jesus being called god at all date to the latter part of the first century (GJohn, Hebrews), and even these guys did not, so far as we know, understand Jesus the way later Christians did/do.
Where did this notion come from? St. John of Damascus' book, A Classic in Eastern Orthodox Christian Theology, is the first goo explanation of the Christian 'Holy Trinity'. Is this book where this idea originated?
At the First Council of Nicaea in 325 CE, the majority of bishops agreed, contra Arius, that the son was the "same substance" as the father. For some, like the Bishop of Alexandria Athenasius, this still wasnt good enough. By way of analogy, I can say my paperweight is constructed from the same marble as the Parthenon. You might think this means the weight is the same sort of marble, or you might think I had actually gone and chipped off a piece of the Parthenon. Most Bishops at Nicaea understood the creed in the first sense; Jesus and the father were both made of "divine stuff" like the weight is made of marble. Athenasius, on the other hand, thought Jesus was made of the father's divine stuff, and vise versa.

A similar debate started over the Holy Spirit. An ideal understanding of Christian theology would have related the Spirit, so important to scripture and liturgy, to Jesus and the father in the same way they had explicitly formulated the relation between the latter two at Nicaea. Unfortunately, theologians had paid little attention to the issue.

Resolving all of these problems fell on three guys from Cappadocia in present day Turkey; Basil, his brother Gregory of Nyssa, and their friend Gregory of Nazianzus. Their solution, modern trinitarianism, was that god was three persons/individuals of a single substance.

This was in the latter part of the 4th century CE.
User avatar
Magnetic
Jedi Knight
Posts: 626
Joined: 2005-07-08 11:23am

Post by Magnetic »

Spoonist wrote: Example of an imperfect God from the first chapters of genesis: (there are plenty more)

NIV Genesis 2 wrote:
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested [a] from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

The creation myth is based upon it taking time and work to do it. A perfect god would have created a perfect world. A perfect and omnipotent god would also not have to rest at all.
So if you as a Christian set faith into the biblical creation myth then you agree that god is not perfect.
The Christian response to that is this: God "rested" on the 7th day to show us how we should live our lives, not that god NEEDED to rest. It was God's way to show us that we are to work for 6 days, and rest on Sunday.
--->THIS SPACE FOR RENT<---
Post Reply