The tragedy of the moon?

[rhoenix]

I recently got the non-fiction book The Tragedy of the Moon, by Isaac Asimov, and amongst all the interesting other essays, he wrote two in particular that made me think.

The first essay had this premise - Would human culture and development have changed if our moon was instead orbitting Venus?

His second essay was about why it was a good thing we had a moon, especially for lunar effects on the tides of our planet.

However, this is an interesting thought, and I'd like to see what your opinions on this premise, and it's effects would be.

Would our human development have changed if our moon was instead orbitting Venus? Would our religions and cultures be different, if early on in human society, we could see that though our planet did not have a moon, another planet nearby did (and thus skip the earth-centric view of the universe altogether)? Would we have developed at all, without the moon's effects on the tides?

[Penitent Tangent]

Well from what I know of the moon not only does it control the tides but it also regulates the spin of the earth along it's axis. Without it the Earth would spin more eradicaly.

[Patrick Degan]

We might not even exist, given how the moon's geophysical effect is integral to Earth's environment.

[The Spartan]

It's possible that without the moon, life would not have had the chance to evolve as much as it has. Look at the impact craters littering its surface and then imagine how much different life on Earth would be like if its surface looked like that.

[Adrian Laguna]

It's possible that without the moon, life would not have had the chance to evolve as much as it has. Look at the impact craters littering its surface and then imagine how much different life on Earth would be like if its surface looked like that.

I'm not seeing how no moon means that Earth would be covered in impact craters. Geological activity, the wind, the rain, and the seas cover-up craters in the Earth, this would probably happen without the moon.

[The Spartan]

Well, if those asteroids are close enough to get caught in the gravity of the moon, wouldn't many (obviously not all) get pulled in by the Earth's gravity without the moon? Wouldn't major impacts have occured at a greater rate than they have, and thus, alter the course of evolution?

[Adrian Laguna]

Well, if those asteroids are close enough to get caught in the gravity of the moon, wouldn't many (obviously not all) get pulled in by the Earth's gravity without the moon? Wouldn't major impacts have occured at a greater rate than they have, and thus, alter the course of evolution?

It might alter the course of evolution, but it's removal alone would do so much more dramatically. Tides would be considerably less dramatic, and the day/night cycle would be quite a bit faster.

The asteroids that have hit the Moon are merely a freaction of the asteroids that have hit Earth. Just look at the thing in the night sky, it only covers a tiny part of the possible angles objects could come from, and the other side of the planet is entirely uncovered.

[Penitent Tangent]

The asteroids thing is a moot point. The Earth has an atmosphere that detroys the asteroids before they can make landfall the moon does not so Earth is protected either way.

[Solauren]

Destroys SMALL asteroids.

Larger ones the moon deflects

[Patrick Degan]

The asteroids thing is a moot point. The Earth has an atmosphere that detroys the asteroids before they can make landfall the moon does not so Earth is protected either way.

Hmm... I think the dinosaurs might disagree with you, if they could.

[The Spartan]

It might alter the course of evolution, but it's removal alone would do so much more dramatically. Tides would be considerably less dramatic, and the day/night cycle would be quite a bit faster.

Oh I agree with that.

The asteroids that have hit the Moon are merely a freaction of the asteroids that have hit Earth. Just look at the thing in the night sky, it only covers a tiny part of the possible angles objects could come from, and the other side of the planet is entirely uncovered.

That I did not know. I was under the impression that the majority of impacts had hit the moon, thereby sparing Earth to a certain, greater, degree.

The asteroids thing is a moot point. The Earth has an atmosphere that detroys the asteroids before they can make landfall the moon does not so Earth is protected either way.

Tell that to the dinosaurs.

[Penitent Tangent]

Yes you both are correct the dinosaurs went extinct because of an asteroid impact but since the moon didn't stop it it made no difference either way. It's possible that another major asteroid capable of detroying life on Earth might have hit the moon later on but still that's just speculation.

[Spin Echo]

The moon does protect the earth somewhat from asteroid strikes, both through it's gravity well and simply being in the way. What's really protecting us from much more frequent asteroid strikes is Jupiter, but I digress.

[Pick]

Well, I assume it would have a considerable cultural effect if nothing else, as the concept of the "Moon and Sun" as a duo is rather prevalent throughout even earlier societies.

[Plekhanov]

Well without the moon the tidal ecosystems with have around the world would obviously be significantly different.

Weren’t tides of some significance in the evolution of life on the land?

Also aren’t there some theories than early man often lived on the coast eating shellfish and quickly spread out hugging the coastline?

Had we evolved in its absence the lack of a moon might well affect how we measure time as so far as I’m aware the phases of the moon were long used pretty much everywhere for this purpose.

[Spin Echo]

Would our human development have changed if our moon was instead orbitting Venus? Would our religions and cultures be different, if early on in human society, we could see that though our planet did not have a moon, another planet nearby did (and thus skip the earth-centric view of the universe altogether)? Would we have developed at all, without the moon's effects on the tides?

First of all, it would be much more difficult for civilizations starting out. The wobble in the earth's precession would be much greater, leading to a more unstable climate.

A second to Plekhanov's comment about it making it harder to keep track of time. People would still manage to track time with the stars, but you get better precision with the moon. I imagine that would make longer distance trade more difficult.

I suspect there might be fewer incidences of the "Birth Death and Rebirth" type myths in the culture. Werewolf legends would probably be right out.

I'm skeptical whether it would matter if the moon was around Venus instead of simply not existing. Would we be able to see the moon around Venus with the naked eye? If not, how would Venus having a moon be any different than Jupiter having moons. The fact the stars still appear to revolve around the earth would probably still lead to a geocentric view in the beginning.

[rhoenix]

I'm skeptical whether it would matter if the moon was around Venus instead of simply not existing. Would we be able to see the moon around Venus with the naked eye?

Well, the point raised in Asimov's essay was that we as a species would likely observe the effect of a moon around Venus sooner than around Mars, or any of the planets beyond the Asteroid Belt with moons. Therefore (this part is the reason I made this post here) we as a species would only have a fleeting thought of our importance in the universe - if we could observe that something definitely orbits a planet other than ours early in our societal and cultural development as a species.

[Hawkwings]

they'd probably see it as an attendant of whatever Venus happened to be. Of course, that would mean admitting that Earth doesn't have an attendant, so is inferor.

Or maybe Earth's attendant is INVISIBLE! Yeah!

[Srynerson]

A lengthy article regarding the likely effects on Earth if the Moon didn't exist: +http://www.astrosociety.org/education/p ... 33/33.html (key point for the OP's final question - the evolution of life would likely be retarded and would definitely be quite different).

I also recommend the book, What if the Moon Didn't Exist? by the same author, Neil F. Comins, which has examinations of other hypothetical Earths (e.g., what if the Earth's axial tilt was as great as Uranus'?).

[rhoenix]

A lengthy article regarding the likely effects on Earth if the Moon didn't exist: +http://www.astrosociety.org/education/p ... 33/33.html (key point for the OP's final question - the evolution of life would likely be retarded and would definitely be quite different).

I also recommend the book, What if the Moon Didn't Exist? by the same author, Neil F. Comins, which has examinations of other hypothetical Earths (e.g., what if the Earth's axial tilt was as great as Uranus'?).

Thank you for helping to satisfy random curiosity - that link you posted was an engrossing read. I'm thinking of getting the book when I can, now.

However, I am still interested in hearing other opinions.

[Darth Wong]

The moon does protect the earth somewhat from asteroid strikes, both through it's gravity well and simply being in the way. What's really protecting us from much more frequent asteroid strikes is Jupiter, but I digress.

I suggest you do the math on the surface area of a sphere of radius equal to the Moon's average orbital radius, and then divide that surface area by the Moon's cross-sectional area in order to derive a ratio. You will find that despite what you may intuitively conclude, the Moon actually blocks very little of our sky. Moreover, any gravitational influence it has on large passing asteroids could just as easily pull them into an impact path; there is no law stating that the Moon can only pull asteroids off an impact path, and not onto an impact path.

[Adrian Laguna]

I suggest you do the math on the surface area of a sphere of radius equal to the Moon's average orbital radius, and then divide that surface area by the Moon's cross-sectional area in order to derive a ratio. You will find that despite what you may intuitively conclude, the Moon actually blocks very little of our sky.

I would say that intuitively one would conclude that the moon is a shitty asteroid shield. While calculations are great, this is one particular case where simply looking out the window makes the truth quite evident. Thinking otherwise betrays either inability to think three dimensionaly, or that one has been watching way too many cartoons (moon tends to be a lot bigger in those).

[Dooey Jo]

If the moon was to disappear shortly before primates started becoming smart (to ensure humans still evolve and the day still is 24 hours. Though the length of the day isn't necessarily dependent on a moon, as for example Venus will tell you), the most obvious effect to cultures would be the lack of months. Instead of dividing the year into four quarters of three months each, there would have to be about 90 days per quarter. Perhaps in some cultures they would be lumped together into weeks of nine days (so there's one week for every finger or so). This is actually a more precise measurement of time than through months, so perhaps the additional number crunching would have positive effects on human development.

And perhaps the impossibility of a Moon race would cause a Mars race instead...

Werewolf legends would probably be right out.

No, only the part about full moons would be out. That's because in folklore, werewolves were usually evil magic users or people cursed to become wolves; the moon had nothing to do with it. As usual you may thank modern fiction for that.

[Rye]

Hmm... I think the dinosaurs might disagree with you, if they could.

He says it didn't work out so bad, for him, not that he disagrees with your statement that asteroids can make it through the atmosphere.

[Lord Sander]

I'm wondering if in this scenario the Moon never existed, or it was stolen away (somehow, Alien Space Bats?) after it had been present for some time?
If the giant impact hypothesis holds true, Theia not hitting Earth would quite possibly mean no life at all, and Theia hitting Earth in such a way that both reformed into a single planet would have untold consequences.