Building a graser from hell: need a little help
Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
Building a graser from hell: need a little help
Gamma rays are typically thought of as being shorter wavelengths than 0.03 nm. Hard X-rays fall into that category too of course, and as I understand it, the differentiation is just between the source of the emission.
However, I find the wavelength of the aforementioned gamma ray a bit long for my (actually somewhat arbitrary) needs. I want to build a graser in the 750 attometer range (by comparison we're dealing here with 30,000,000 attometers for the longest gamma rays). I'm not sure how to calculate how many zillions of eV are required to produce such a monster, but I'm sure quite a lot.
From a scientific point of view, how far gone am I to say I want a 750 am graser, with a new and improved model due out fairly soon with a 400 am wavelength?
Uses? Turning things into plasma mostly, be they asteroids, spaceships, alien warriors, hostile mercenaries, space monkeys, etc.
However, I find the wavelength of the aforementioned gamma ray a bit long for my (actually somewhat arbitrary) needs. I want to build a graser in the 750 attometer range (by comparison we're dealing here with 30,000,000 attometers for the longest gamma rays). I'm not sure how to calculate how many zillions of eV are required to produce such a monster, but I'm sure quite a lot.
From a scientific point of view, how far gone am I to say I want a 750 am graser, with a new and improved model due out fairly soon with a 400 am wavelength?
Uses? Turning things into plasma mostly, be they asteroids, spaceships, alien warriors, hostile mercenaries, space monkeys, etc.
Gork the Ork sez: Speak softly and carry a Big Shoota!
- Wyrm
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You do know about the energy-frequency relation of quantum mechanics, do you not? E = hf? You do know about the frequency-wavelength relation of bog-standard wave mechanics, do you not? fλ = c? That gives you the energy per gamma ray photon, which is what I assume you're asking for (given that you're measurement is in eV).
If you're asking me about pumping and stuff, I'm afraid I can't help you.
If you're asking me about pumping and stuff, I'm afraid I can't help you.
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- Admiral Valdemar
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To produce such an excited, high-energy DEW, you'd be looking at a one-shot weapon of some type, probably a variation on proposed bomb pumped ideas, but with exotic materials beyond current means. There'd be no lens or medium able to create such a beam and focus it continually without being vaped itself, if of course, you're using this weapon for insane levels of hurt.
I'd really just put that energy generation into a KE weapon and be done with it.
I'd really just put that energy generation into a KE weapon and be done with it.
Okay, Wyrm, to be honest I don't know that much about quantum mechanics, but from what you gave me I was able to deduce:
h = planck constant
the frequency of our 750 attometer "leetel friend" would be about 3.997 e 23 Hz, (from c/ 7.5 e -16 ).
looks like about 2.648 e -10 Joules per photon, or 1.653 billion eV. (If 1 eV is ~1.602 e -19 J )
Broken down into those terms, that doesn't sound like an obscene amount of energy (or have I been listening to too many budget hearings lately to be phased by billions?). I am curious as to how much matter you could expect to penetrate with such a wavelength. If the 30,000,000 am versions of gamma rays can penetrate several centimeters of lead, what could these do?
Admiral Valdemar:
I was thinking the weapon used some kind of plasma coolant that follows the graser "bolt" as a sort of secondary projectile. And you're right: if there was a lens at the muzzle end of the weapon, it wouldn't be there for very long. As for insane levels of hurt, it looks like we're on the order of a few million Exahurts
h = planck constant
the frequency of our 750 attometer "leetel friend" would be about 3.997 e 23 Hz, (from c/ 7.5 e -16 ).
looks like about 2.648 e -10 Joules per photon, or 1.653 billion eV. (If 1 eV is ~1.602 e -19 J )
Broken down into those terms, that doesn't sound like an obscene amount of energy (or have I been listening to too many budget hearings lately to be phased by billions?). I am curious as to how much matter you could expect to penetrate with such a wavelength. If the 30,000,000 am versions of gamma rays can penetrate several centimeters of lead, what could these do?
Admiral Valdemar:
I was thinking the weapon used some kind of plasma coolant that follows the graser "bolt" as a sort of secondary projectile. And you're right: if there was a lens at the muzzle end of the weapon, it wouldn't be there for very long. As for insane levels of hurt, it looks like we're on the order of a few million Exahurts
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- Kuroneko
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Since it is orders of magnitude higher than those typically produced in fission or fusion, it still is an obsene amount of energy for a photon.wilfulton wrote:Broken down into those terms, that doesn't sound like an obscene amount of energy (or have I been listening to too many budget hearings lately to be phased by billions?).
Likely much worse. Attenuation coefficient increases with photon energy once pair production starts at 1MeV.wilfulton wrote:I am curious as to how much matter you could expect to penetrate with such a wavelength. If the 30,000,000 am versions of gamma rays can penetrate several centimeters of lead, what could these do?
"The fool saith in his heart that there is no empty set. But if that were so, then the set of all such sets would be empty, and hence it would be the empty set." -- Wesley Salmon
Hmm...just noticed that electron-positron annihilation only yields ~500 KeV.Kuroneko wrote:Since it is orders of magnitude higher than those typically produced in fission or fusion, it still is an obsene amount of energy for a photon.
And of course the 30,000,000 am gamma only has an energy level of ~10 KeV.
Damn! But I love being able to resolve arguments with obscene amounts of energy! My zero point / hypermatter / wankoffium reactor will just have to hold out.
It looks like pair production really starts becoming significant around 10 MeV, or 1/100 th of what I'm trying to cram into a photon. But if I'm reading my google right, the photon loses some of its energy by creating a positron. Positrons don't hang around for very long before they find an electron to produce a pair of 511 KeV gamma photons with.Kuroneko wrote:Likely much worse. Attenuation coefficient increases with photon energy once pair production starts at 1MeV.
I was about to say that if the penetration of obscene short wavelength gamma rays is actually less than those we typically see in the universe, that would solve the problem with overpenetration concerns in hand weapons. But I'm seeing a secondary fragmentation hazard here now. Looks like a shootout involving said weapons (I was planning to have hand weapons of this sort too...) could get rather messy rather quickly.
Of course if you start blowing atomic nuclei apart (photdisintegration--evidently possible at these energy levels) you could end up with a radioactive mess anyway.
Good thing my mercs wear full vacuum suits when they're on the job!
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- RedImperator
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Wait wait wait...you plan to cram the power source for a 1.65 giga electron volt gamma ray laser into a handgun?
Here's another "hand weapon" for you:
Here's another "hand weapon" for you:
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X-Ray Blues
X-Ray Blues
Heh! Fists of fury indeed. Since anti matter gives me about 1/1000th the power I need (okay, 1/3000th) let me see if there aren't any other SI units that have that certain ring to them. I was planning to have a rather interesting shootout, not create another universe in the middle of this one...
Gork the Ork sez: Speak softly and carry a Big Shoota!
Okay, having some time to crunch numbers, it looks like if I build a graser in the 700-900 femtometer range, we're talking ~1.5 to 2 MeV, which is still obviously quite a lot, but not as bad as the attometer range, which could be reserved for single-shot missiles.
I think a zero point power supply could handle that...
I think a zero point power supply could handle that...
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- Admiral Valdemar
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Since the firepower of the weapon would depend upon the energy delivered rather than the energy per individual photon, there is no clear reason to use even 1.5 MeV radiation. Indeed, with known technology, photons in the MeV range can be directed far less than even X-rays in the low keV range, so normally the obtainable range, focus, and concentration of the beam on the target would be less.
If penetration was the goal instead of range or raw firepower, a particle beam analogous to the more penetrating cosmic rays would penetrate more shielding. However, for your handgun example, high penetration might not be the goal. Rather, avoiding production of much secondary radiation could be paramount. The amount of secondary radiation required for the operator to have undesirable health risks is literally a number of orders of magnitude below the original beam energy immediately lethal to the target, especially considering repeated firings. Since 1.5 MeV to 2 MeV photons should still cause some pair production indirectly irradiating the operator, such is probably undesirable unless that amount is truely astronomically low compared to the original beam energy.
A lethal radiation gun could be an interesting and effective weapon if it could be practically built and safe for its operator. Yet there seems no benefit in having photons in the MeV range when you could just use X-rays in the keV range.
If penetration was the goal instead of range or raw firepower, a particle beam analogous to the more penetrating cosmic rays would penetrate more shielding. However, for your handgun example, high penetration might not be the goal. Rather, avoiding production of much secondary radiation could be paramount. The amount of secondary radiation required for the operator to have undesirable health risks is literally a number of orders of magnitude below the original beam energy immediately lethal to the target, especially considering repeated firings. Since 1.5 MeV to 2 MeV photons should still cause some pair production indirectly irradiating the operator, such is probably undesirable unless that amount is truely astronomically low compared to the original beam energy.
A lethal radiation gun could be an interesting and effective weapon if it could be practically built and safe for its operator. Yet there seems no benefit in having photons in the MeV range when you could just use X-rays in the keV range.
Ow, scratch that oneAdmiral Valdemar wrote:
Assuming you got that concept to work, you've got two options. Off, or infinity. Care to take a guess at what an infinite amount of energy coming through your device will do to the locality of your protagonist?
I had thought that while the ZPE field was something like 100 orders of magnitude greater than say the heart of the sun, it was finite.
http://www.calphysics.org/zpe.html
Of course the 511 KeV is for electron-positron annihilation. It looks like proton-antiproton annihilation might put out more what I'm looking at (OT: the hell do you call an antiproton anyway? If an anti-electron is a positron, what does that make an antiproton? A negatron? )
http://physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Value?mpc2mev
Gork the Ork sez: Speak softly and carry a Big Shoota!
Yes, it was primarily Kuroneko's post that made me reconsider using such a beast for handheld weapons (the part about vacuum armor was just a very sick, sick joke).Sikon wrote:Since the firepower of the weapon would depend upon the energy delivered rather than the energy per individual photon, there is no clear reason to use even 1.5 MeV radiation. Indeed, with known technology, photons in the MeV range can be directed far less than even X-rays in the low keV range, so normally the obtainable range, focus, and concentration of the beam on the target would be less.
If penetration was the goal instead of range or raw firepower, a particle beam analogous to the more penetrating cosmic rays would penetrate more shielding. However, for your handgun example, high penetration might not be the goal. Rather, avoiding production of much secondary radiation could be paramount. The amount of secondary radiation required for the operator to have undesirable health risks is literally a number of orders of magnitude below the original beam energy immediately lethal to the target, especially considering repeated firings. Since 1.5 MeV to 2 MeV photons should still cause some pair production indirectly irradiating the operator, such is probably undesirable unless that amount is truely astronomically low compared to the original beam energy.
A lethal radiation gun could be an interesting and effective weapon if it could be practically built and safe for its operator. Yet there seems no benefit in having photons in the MeV range when you could just use X-rays in the keV range.
http://www.ndt-ed.org/EducationResource ... uation.htm
Whoo...if I drop the output below 1 MeV, there goes even more of the cool factor of having a hand graser*, but it gains practicality as there go the deadly secondary emissions with it. However, 2 MeV, while high enough to produce this effect, doesn't look like it would be well below the "significant" threshold. Then again, as you say, if you're burning off the power cell on full automatic for some reason, such as being in the middle of a firefight, it probably becomes very significant.Pair production (PP) can occur when the x-ray photon energy is greater than 1.02 MeV, but really only becomes significant at energies around 10 MeV. Pair production occurs when an electron and positron are created with the annihilation of the x-ray photon. Positrons are very short lived and disappear (positron annihilation) with the formation of two photons of 0.51 MeV energy. Pair production is of particular importance when high-energy photons pass through materials of a high atomic number.
*Actually, this is somewhat important to the way I'm telling the story, because it does somewhat satirize real life. The idea of "Look, I got a 1 MEGA electron volt hand graser" is analagous to the idiot who brags about his new " x-hundred super duper ultra magnum hunting rifle that's really powerful, has lots of muzzle energy, all kinds of knock-down power," and because it kicks like a mule he can't handle the recoil and as a result can't hit the broad side of a barn with it to begin with. Thus some obscenely high amount of energy is necessary but largely as a cosmetic touch.
Gork the Ork sez: Speak softly and carry a Big Shoota!
If by not significant they do literally mean a photon pair production rate like under one in billions, then perhaps the weapon could give more than 100 Sv to the target while keeping the operator's indirect exposure per shot no more than a few microsieverts.
Still, one thing I would wonder is if "Look, I got a 1 MEGA-joule ...." or "Look, I got a 1 MEGA-watt...." couldn't work just as well as "Look, I got a 1 MEGA electron volt ..."
But you would know best what works for the planned story as the author.
Then again, if the buyer being an idiot is a story element, he might not care whether or not his gun gave him more than the few mSv of occupational radiation safety limits over many firings, so it might not matter anyway...wilfulton wrote: The idea of "Look, I got a 1 MEGA electron volt hand graser" is analagous to the idiot who brags about his new " x-hundred super duper ultra magnum hunting rifle that's really powerful, has lots of muzzle energy, all kinds of knock-down power," and because it kicks like a mule he can't handle the recoil and as a result can't hit the broad side of a barn with it to begin with.
Still, one thing I would wonder is if "Look, I got a 1 MEGA-joule ...." or "Look, I got a 1 MEGA-watt...." couldn't work just as well as "Look, I got a 1 MEGA electron volt ..."
But you would know best what works for the planned story as the author.
You guys have been extremely helpful. My refined product consists of:
1400 femtometer for most smaller hand weapons, up to 1100 femtometer for your heavy weapons.
a 1400 fm photon would be ~890 KeV, and an 1100 fm one ~1.127 MeV. So your typical hand weapons should be seeing too much pair production, although your heavy weapons might. Presumably however, they would either be missiles, thus single shot propositions, or vehicle / turret mounted weapons and thus have heavy shielding and nobody is thusly terribly concerned about backscatter.
For focusing: gravity lens, with appropriate anti-grav systems to keep the weapon from sucking itself into a black hole along with the person holding it (and the appropriate redundant safety measures so that provided you don't stick your finger down the barrel, you'll be okay).
The attometer range would probably be mostly starship weapons, at which point we don't particularly care about how many pairs we produce, so long as we annihilate enough of the target ship's hull to render him incapable of returning the favor.
Hmm...
did anyone else notice that we're playing with am / fm gamma rays?
1400 femtometer for most smaller hand weapons, up to 1100 femtometer for your heavy weapons.
a 1400 fm photon would be ~890 KeV, and an 1100 fm one ~1.127 MeV. So your typical hand weapons should be seeing too much pair production, although your heavy weapons might. Presumably however, they would either be missiles, thus single shot propositions, or vehicle / turret mounted weapons and thus have heavy shielding and nobody is thusly terribly concerned about backscatter.
For focusing: gravity lens, with appropriate anti-grav systems to keep the weapon from sucking itself into a black hole along with the person holding it (and the appropriate redundant safety measures so that provided you don't stick your finger down the barrel, you'll be okay).
The attometer range would probably be mostly starship weapons, at which point we don't particularly care about how many pairs we produce, so long as we annihilate enough of the target ship's hull to render him incapable of returning the favor.
Hmm...
did anyone else notice that we're playing with am / fm gamma rays?
Gork the Ork sez: Speak softly and carry a Big Shoota!
One interesting stunt might be a form of suicide troops, who use the higher output weapons, but are expected to die. So your marines have to use their existing weapons, against drugged up psychotics wielding nastier weaponry. The psychotics will die in a few years (or less), but if they win . . .
Or use combat robots for the heavy firepower needs.
Or use combat robots for the heavy firepower needs.