Dark Energy

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Elessar
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Post by Elessar »

Kittie Rose wrote:I'm not sure I fully under stand probabilistic vs. deterministic. Do you mean that one can be directly observed and we can be more or less sure about it, but the other, we can only give a decent probability as to what attributes it holds? Quantum is "Fuzzy" as opposed to "Big Physics" being more clear cut? Kind of ironic given what "Quanta" means to begin with.
On probabilistic... the key idea is based on the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Explained very simply, the process of observation changes the observed object in some manner (even with infinitely precise instruments). You will never know precisely where and how fast something is going; just one, the other, or some combination... thus a rough, grey-coloured zone (such as electron bands) of probability.

Deterministic doesn't have this issue. Nice how things simplify in the macroworld.
Thinkmarble
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Post by Thinkmarble »

But isn't this more of an observation than an absolute "Why"? Can you really know everything, or even a decent amount about a fundamental force until you have a better idea as to what causes it to occur?
I am not quite sure how to tackle this.

First, you can always, I always ask why. The question "What causes this" has never a final answer.
You ask "Why ?", I answer "Because of this", you ask "Why because of this?".
In a round about way science is not about finding final causes but better descriptions.
The best description for what holds nuclei/nucleons together is an interaction generated by demanding the invariance under SU(3) local.
The linear potential* I mentioned is actually an approximation.

*well, more like V(r) approx r^-1 + k*r

In simpler terms, what you're saying is that the curve for interaction of the force so quickly disipates with distance that it falls below the threshold needed to over-ride the "natural" state of the quarks involve, by seperating them etc.? Or do I misunderstand.
Acutally it does not dissipate.
The force between two color charged particles stays constant with distance.
The potential energy between two color charged particles grows linear with the distance.

Lets say you got a meson build out of an red quark r and an anti-red quark ar.
So at the start you got
r-ar
then you start to drag them apart
r---ar
and some more
r---------ar
and now you have reached the point that the energy in the field between r and ar is large enough that you get pair creation (E=mc^2, remember ?)
so you get
r---ar r---ar
Endresult: No free quark, massive energy expenditure but two mesons where we started with one.
But what causes that in the first place?
I am not quite sure how to explain that.
You generate the color force by demanding SU(3) local, but for why we use SU(3) local, well the answer is because it works.
And, well, I could explain what SU(3) ( the group of transformation describable by unitarian matricen with determinant 1 in three dimensions), and how to get from SU(3) invariance to an interaction, but well, that takes quite some time and I am not good explaning stuff.
I also dont know where to start with it.
And can you be sure there are no emergent effects of so much of this quark-shifting occuring in a small place?
Sorry, I do not understand.
Though yes, my theory of gravity being related to it does seem rather silly now. But the concept in general still confused me.
Well, it takes quite some time to shed confusion about these matters and personally I am still confused about quite a bit of gauge field theory/QCD.


J
Why is it that neutrons are not considered dark, then, because they're made up of Quarks which are charged?
For a start neutrons are only stable in nuclei, on their own they decay.
Second, they do interact electromagnetically through their spin and, yes because they are made out of charged quarks, through their dipole moment.
How do you know the same isn't true for Dark energy, except they're made up of different particles to Quarks?
Well, because Dark energy pretty much behaves like ground state energy.
Which can be best described as the energy space has just because it is their. I would expect matter to be clumped which dark energy is not.

At the end of the day I should be more careful about ex cathedre prouncenments :).
Is this the idea of the Axion and the Neutralino?
IIRC Neutralino were the proposed superpartners for the neutrino, which were actually for a time traded as an candidate for dark matter.
Anyway the idea behind Neutralino is supersymmetry, and the idea behind supersymmetry is trading field quants of gauge fields and the field quants of matter field on a more equal footing, which is IIRC an result of unification of the electroweak gauge group and the color gauge group into one. IIRC the first candidate was SU(5) local, but that failed mainly because of the lower limit we have for the half life of a proton.

You may have realized that I am reaching the limits of my knowledge.
If so, wouldn't it be particularly dangerous if someone found a way to split this matter up into it's "Not Quarks", should they exist? Wouldn't vast quantities of dark energy them interact electromagnetically with our own matter? And is there any way to find out if this has happened before?
Mhm.*scratches head*

Well, like I said dark energy behaves like ground state energy.

Above I said that you could understand that by thinking of it as the energy space has by virtue of existing.
The energy space has by virtue of existing actually depends upon which fields exists.
Photons, Gluons, quarks, electrons are excitations of their underlying fields.
So you get an electron matter field, or a photon gauge field and so on.
And these fields do exists and have an energy even if they are not exited.
The energy of the electromagnetic field could be written as:

sum over the energy of all photons plus a constant

So the electromagnetic field has an energy even in absence of photons and the field is present in all of space.
So if you take everything you can out of an volumen of space you are still left with the ground states of your fields, and the energy they contribute.

You could then put energy into the field, which means that you would be creating electrons and protons and stuff.

Now this can not be the whole picture, because there is less ground state energy (I should really talk about energy density instead of energy) then we would expect, which is really puzzeling.
If both these concepts involve gravity, and the level of dark matter 'required' is based on mass estimates derived from gravity, does this mean the suggested amount of dark 'stuff' has to exist, or could it just 'look' that way to us? I don't see how it's possible to have gravity without mass, however.
Umh, gravity couples to the energy-stress tensor, which contains all kind of terms for momentum, stress, pressure, ...
Mass is just one of the possible sources of gravity.
And around 95% of the mass of a proton is not "real mass" anyway but rather an result the energy of the colour field holding the proton together.
Or rather, it is real mass, afterall mass is just the energy an physical system has in its rest system.


But yes, dark matter could be something else.
Their have been e.g. some attempts to resolve the problem not by introducing dark matter but instead changing Newtons law for small accelerations, runs under the name MOND (Modified Newtonian Dynamics), but that did not amount too much as far as I know, also people are still working on it.
Kittie Rose
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Post by Kittie Rose »

Acutally it does not dissipate.
The force between two color charged particles stays constant with distance.
The potential energy between two color charged particles grows linear with the distance.

Lets say you got a meson build out of an red quark r and an anti-red quark ar.
So at the start you got
r-ar
then you start to drag them apart
r---ar
and some more
r---------ar
and now you have reached the point that the energy in the field between r and ar is large enough that you get pair creation (E=mc^2, remember ?)
so you get
r---ar r---ar
Endresult: No free quark, massive energy expenditure but two mesons where we started with one.
Ah, I understand now from how you rephrased it, thanks. You're basically pulling it so far that it may as well repair.
Well, like I said dark energy behaves like ground state energy.
If dark energy behaves like ground state energy, isn't it unlikely to make the kind of complex structures required for the "Shadow universe"(or us being the Shadow universe for another, rather) to actually exist? Or at the very least for it to support anything like life as we know it.
Thinkmarble
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Post by Thinkmarble »

Kittie Rose wrote: If dark energy behaves like ground state energy, isn't it unlikely to make the kind of complex structures required for the "Shadow universe"(or us being the Shadow universe for another, rather) to actually exist? Or at the very least for it to support anything like life as we know it.
Sorry, Shadow universe does not ring a bell.
Dark energy is uniformly distributed throughout space, each give volumen has the same amount of it.
Dark matter in turn is clumped in galaxy, distributed through their halo, and not to be found between them.
The idea of dark energy comes pretty much from the observation of expanding space, it is the yeast ^_^.
Dark matter comes from the, uff, if I recall correctly, distribution of rotational speed around the center of mass of a galaxy. We can take a look at the visible matter and make a conclusion about how fast a star at a given distance from the center should move.
But the visible mass and the speed of stars do not match.
To make it match dark matter was introduced.
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drachefly
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Post by drachefly »

Elessar wrote:On probabilistic... the key idea is based on the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Explained very simply, the process of observation changes the observed object in some manner (even with infinitely precise instruments). You will never know precisely where and how fast something is going; just one, the other, or some combination... thus a rough, grey-coloured zone (such as electron bands) of probability.
That is not true.

First, what you describe is the observer effect. The HUP is even more fundamental, based on symmetries. That is, if a particle is constrained to a location tightly, that means its momentum is all over the map, even if you do not measure it. The HUP is not an element of randomness. It is a description of relationships of destributions.

Second, quantum theory is deterministic. Pick a starting wavefunction, propagate any amount of time forward, and there is only exactly one answer. However, which part of the wavefunction we end up observing is random. The interpretations of quantum mechanics differ on where to put this randomness, but it's nowhere in the math.
metavac
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Post by metavac »

Kittie Rose wrote:Why is it that neutrons are not considered dark, then, because they're made up of Quarks which are charged? How do you know the same isn't true for Dark energy, except they're made up of different particles to Quarks? Is this the idea of the Axion and the Neutralino?
Neutrons have a negative magnetic moment. They do interact with magnetic fields. "Dark" matter specifically refers to matter with no detectable reflectivity and emissivity.
If so, wouldn't it be particularly dangerous if someone found a way to split this matter up into it's "Not Quarks", should they exist?
Short answer is no one knows. These particles are principally understood via a select few properties. Their structure remains unknown.
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