Questions from Jesus Camp

[Falkenhayn]

I purchased that Documentary the other day. For anyone that dosen't know, Jesus Camp details the lives of three young (ages 5-10) evangelical children sent to the Children On Fire Day Camp in North Dakota. There, they are taught to welcome Armageddon, Pray in Tongues, and constantly reminded of their own sinful worthlessness by the Youth Pastor. Of course once they are broken down, they are then built back up as "Soldiers for Christ", and many enraptured tears are shed.

So I was inspired myself. I, quite literally, dusted off my Bible*, and read the Sermon on the Mount, and Matthew in general.

Matthew 5, v. 33-37: You have heard the commandment imposed on your forefathers, 'Do not take a false oath; rather, make good to the Lord all your pledges'. What I tell you is: do not swear at all. Do not swear by heaven (it is God's Throne), nor by the earth (it is his footstool), nor by Jerusalem (it is the city of the great King); do not swear by your head (you cannot make a single hair white or black). Say, 'Yes' when you mean 'Yes' and 'No' when you mean 'No' Anything beyond that is from the evil one.

Matthew 6, v. 5-15: When you are praying, do not behave like the hypocrites who love to stand and pray in synagogues or on street corners in order to be noticed. I give my word, they are already repaid. Whenever you pray, go to your room, close your door, and pray to your Father in private. Then your Father, who sees what no man sees, will repay you. In your prayer do not rattle on like the pagans. They think they will win hearing by the sheer multiplication of words. Do not imitate them. Your Father knows what you need before you ask him. This is how you are to pray...[Insert the text of the Our Father]...If you Forgive the faults of others, your heavenly Father will forgive yours. If you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive you.

So unless the 1611KJVB stands Matthew on its head, and the dogma of Biblical innerancy is true, everyone in Jesus Camp is damned. Why don't they know that?

*My Bible is The New American Bible, Saint Joseph Edition, Catholic Book Publishing Company

[Raw Shark]

So unless the 1611KJVB stands Matthew on its head, and the dogma of Biblical innerancy is true, everyone in Jesus Camp is damned. Why don't they know that?

The Bible contradicts itself so much you pretty much have to cherry-pick the parts you like if you plan to claim it's any sort of guideline for your behavior. This is purely anecdotal of course, but most of the Armageddon / Worthless Sinner crowd that I've encountered are not so much about the "If you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive you" (Matthew 6:15) as they are about the "You're going to suffer, suffer I tell you! Come back here! Fucking listen to me, I say very important things!" (Fundies 5:23)

[Darth Wong]

The vast majority of Christians have never read the Bible. They've only read the selected passages that their preachers told them to read, and those passages were selected in order to produce a coherent message. That's also true for fundies despite their rabid Bible-worship, and it's even more obviously true for these brainwashed kids.

Why do you think so many Christians hold up those stupid "John 3:16" signs at sporting events? They've been taught that you can distill the entire Bible down into a few key passages.

[Duckie]

The vast majority of Christians have never read the Bible. They've only read the selected passages that their preachers told them to read, and those passages were selected in order to produce a coherent message. That's also true for fundies despite their rabid Bible-worship, and it's even more obviously true for these brainwashed kids.

Why do you think so many Christians hold up those stupid "John 3:16" signs at sporting events? They've been taught that you can distill the entire Bible down into a few key passages.

I think actually you overestimate the chaos of the Bible. There are quite a few distilled messages that you can walk away with.

Granted, writing "Kill anyone who does not submit" or "The Israelites Need Lebensraum" or "Jesus is kickin' rad" is less... conversion-friendly... than other messages.

[Alyrium Denryle]

One has to remember that often times the actual holy book is irrelevant to a religion. It is the idea of the holy book that matters. At least in Christianity and islam

People who actually study the holy book tend to do one of three things. They reject it. They accept it as allegory, or they rationalize everything. It depends upon their pre-existing mind-set what they do. These are typically either atheists or theologians (with lay-person exceptions). Not priests. Priests get their material from the theologians who have not rejected the holy book. **

For the priest and lay person, the function the holy book serves is simple justification. They have a pre-conceived notion of what the world and their deity are like, what morality is, etc. They then look in the holy book, not to find the "truth" but in order to confirm their pre-conceived notions of what that truth is. Now, your average holy book is a wonderful meme. Because it can be used to justify anything. Everyone can find truth in it. Their truth. While we view the contradictions and factual errors as a weakness, it is actually a strength when it comes to spreading the religion. A religion that does not have the litany of contradictions and alternative interpretations is limited in how far it can spread by the number of people who subscribe to one belief system. With christianity and islam (not so much judiasm, which does not seek converts) this is not the case. They can spread to whoever will hear the message because after the core of the faith (the resurrection of Christ, and the 5 pillars of islam) the rest is up to so much interpretation and has so many contradictions that everyone will be able to fit it to their own ideology.

[Darth Wong]

I agree. Christianity is the Wal-Mart of religion, complete with smiling elderly greeters. It's all cheap crap from the East, but there's something for everyone.

[Superman]

I agree. Christianity is the Wal-Mart of religion, complete with smiling elderly greeters. It's all cheap crap from the East, but there's something for everyone.

That's a good analogy. I always thought that the evangelical Christians are to religion what professional wrestling is to sports. It really breaks down to a whole lot of loud egotistical morons who put on a good show, but, when you get down to it, 90% of it is bullshit.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

So, would you say that the vague, ambiguous nature of the text/religion act as social selectors? It increases the basic frequency of the ideas allowing it expanded appeal to different people simultaneously?

Even if it is in slightly modified forms, the buffet-table-like characteristics spread the idea in variants.


Hmm. Never thought of it that way. Interesting.

[Darth Wong]

So, would you say that the vague, ambiguous nature of the text/religion act as social selectors? It increases the basic frequency of the ideas allowing it expanded appeal to different people simultaneously?

Even if it is in slightly modified forms, the buffet-table-like characteristics spread the idea in variants.

Hmm. Never thought of it that way. Interesting.

Paul himself put it that way.

To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22.

The religion was designed from Day One to be all things to all people. That's why each of the Gospels is designed to appeal to a different group. There's the Jewish monarchistic one, the humanistic one, the militaristic one ...

[Alyrium Denryle]

So, would you say that the vague, ambiguous nature of the text/religion act as social selectors? It increases the basic frequency of the ideas allowing it expanded appeal to different people simultaneously?

Even if it is in slightly modified forms, the buffet-table-like characteristics spread the idea in variants.


Hmm. Never thought of it that way. Interesting.

Pretty much yeah. I like to think of different denominations like I would different phenotypic variants of a single species. You really can think of religions (or any idea really) as if it were an organism.

Hell, one can even think of communities of individuals as a super-organism. It is modes of thought like that which might even revive the concept of group-selection from the intellectual trash heap... But data will tell

[NeoGoomba]

Why do you think so many Christians hold up those stupid "John 3:16" signs at sporting events? They've been taught that you can distill the entire Bible down into a few key passages.

...you mean it WASN'T to support Jake "The Snake" Roberts!?

[Spyder]

I was just watching it last night, it's incredibly tragic. What you notice with these kids is that they're not being brought up to be part time fundies. Christianity dominates every aspect of their lives. Every single drawing, expression, art/craft and thought these kids put out has exactly the same theme.

They got told not to tell each other ghost stories...

However I couldn't keep a straight face during the segment with Ted Haggard, especially when he says "fabulous."

[Darth Lucifer]

...Jesus Camp details the lives of three young (ages 5-10) evangelical children sent to the Children On Fire Day Camp

After reading about that truck-dragging incident at the "Love Demonstrated" fundie camp, seeing the name of this outfit evoked some vivid mental imagery.

[Darth Wong]

I was just watching it last night, it's incredibly tragic. What you notice with these kids is that they're not being brought up to be part time fundies. Christianity dominates every aspect of their lives. Every single drawing, expression, art/craft and thought these kids put out has exactly the same theme.

And when they grow up, they'll become Young Republicans who write expressively about the tragedy of young Muslim children being brainwashed in madrassas, without a hint of irony.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Indeed. These kids do not have a chance. When a person's entire identity is centered around a single ideology, it is almost impossible to break. And if it is broken, they WILL suffer psychological problems due to the mother of all identity issues.

[Darth Wong]

Indeed. These kids do not have a chance. When a person's entire identity is centered around a single ideology, it is almost impossible to break. And if it is broken, they WILL suffer psychological problems due to the mother of all identity issues.

Did you ever read the Alcoholics Anonymous introduction brochure? The first tenet of the Christian religion is that you are worthless. Only through belief in Christ do you gain value and identity.

[Spin Echo]

However I couldn't keep a straight face during the segment with Ted Haggard, especially when he says "fabulous."

While nothing overt, he seemed to have some of the subtle mannerisms associated with the gay male stereotype.

The bit where the little girl talked about when someone would go to do mission work in a dangerous part of the world, how their children would chant "Martyr!" is just sickening.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Indeed. These kids do not have a chance. When a person's entire identity is centered around a single ideology, it is almost impossible to break. And if it is broken, they WILL suffer psychological problems due to the mother of all identity issues.

Did you ever read the Alcoholics Anonymous introduction brochure? The first tenet of the Christian religion is that you are worthless. Only through belief in Christ do you gain value and identity.

I have. I also read social psych textbooks

But the tactics used in that camp are identical to what one would see in "re-education camps"

[Falkenhayn]

I was just watching it last night, it's incredibly tragic. What you notice with these kids is that they're not being brought up to be part time fundies. Christianity dominates every aspect of their lives. Every single drawing, expression, art/craft and thought these kids put out has exactly the same theme.

And when they grow up, they'll become Young Republicans who write expressively about the tragedy of young Muslim children being brainwashed in madrassas, without a hint of irony.

Great segue into the fact that the Pastors in this movie believed, like John Stewart noted, that we are losing the battle of fanaticism to the Muslims. She states, expressly, that she wants to make children who will grow up to be adults who will die for Christ without pause. The Children themselves express, at the end of the movie, their willingness to die for Christ, and profess fearlessness of death. Most frightening is the acceptance and positive emotion associated with the changes their training had wrought in them.

[Mange]

I was just watching it last night, it's incredibly tragic. What you notice with these kids is that they're not being brought up to be part time fundies. Christianity dominates every aspect of their lives. Every single drawing, expression, art/craft and thought these kids put out has exactly the same theme.

They got told not to tell each other ghost stories...

However I couldn't keep a straight face during the segment with Ted Haggard, especially when he says "fabulous."

Yes, and I particularly found that Fischer woman scary. The parents who send their children to people like that should be charged with child abuse.
And the documentary shows the need for home schooling should stop (or more demands on the tutor).

[Alyrium Denryle]

I was just watching it last night, it's incredibly tragic. What you notice with these kids is that they're not being brought up to be part time fundies. Christianity dominates every aspect of their lives. Every single drawing, expression, art/craft and thought these kids put out has exactly the same theme.

And when they grow up, they'll become Young Republicans who write expressively about the tragedy of young Muslim children being brainwashed in madrassas, without a hint of irony.

Great segue into the fact that the Pastors in this movie believed, like John Stewart noted, that we are losing the battle of fanaticism to the Muslims. She states, expressly, that she wants to make children who will grow up to be adults who will die for Christ without pause. The Children themselves express, at the end of the movie, their willingness to die for Christ, and profess fearlessness of death. Most frightening is the acceptance and positive emotion associated with the changes their training had wrought in them.

They are actually using tactics that are very similar to the ones that military organizations use. I am not comparing the two morally, just the tactics. What military organizations do is break down the identity of the recruit and rebuild it in their image. They do this by demeaning the person and telling them they are useless etc. (mmm drill seargents)

Once that is done, they begin teaching.

That the fuckers here do is the same thing. They tell them that they are evil dirty disgusting sinners over and over again. They tell them that they are worthless over and over. Then they build a new identity, forging it from the ashes until it rises up like the phoenix of bigotry...