I'm currently embroiled in a little dispute on a driver's board (but of course) over this issue. Now, I've mentioned how driving is not a right like freedom of speech, the right to an attorney and health care etc., but still they come up with the bullshit "I have earned the licence, committed no offence so the government cannot do fuck all to me!" line of reasoning.
Does anyone know of any UK specific articles on this as proof, since I find few such government documents stating it as such?
Or, does anyone have any better arguments than me simply reiterating myself?
Debating "Driving Is A Right" Wankers
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Admiral Valdemar
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Well, if they've earned the license, then they've presumably demonstrated competence behind the wheel; after all, that's what a license is supposed to signify. So it seems to me that the issue is really, just how difficult is it to earn the license; if it's not difficult at all, then the license is worthless as a testament to driving ability, and saying "I've got my license!" is a red herring.
But in principle, you're correct: driving should not be considered a right any more than bridge or skyscraper design should be considered a right, and in fact isn't a right because the government issues licenses, in effect saying, "You have to earn the privilege of driving." Again, the question then becomes, do licenses truly signify having earned that privilege?
But in principle, you're correct: driving should not be considered a right any more than bridge or skyscraper design should be considered a right, and in fact isn't a right because the government issues licenses, in effect saying, "You have to earn the privilege of driving." Again, the question then becomes, do licenses truly signify having earned that privilege?
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
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DPDarkPrimus
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Broomstick
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Healthcare is a right? Since whe-- oh, wait, you're in the UK. Nevermind...
>ahem< This is going to vary from one nation to another. For example, here in the US, despite our love affair with the automobile, the courts have very firmly upheld that yes, indeed, driving is NOT a right. In the US.
I'm not familiar with how things are done in the UK, but over here the state you reside in issues a license and you must periodically renew it. If you don't, you lose your driving privileges. Seems to me if it was a right it would be something like voting - you register to vote over here and get a card, but most polling places will accept other ID in lieu of it because you have a RIGHT to vote and the only thing being established is your identity and that you didn't vote more than once.
So, do you have to periodically renew your driver's license in the UK? If so, I'd think that would be the mark of a privilege and not a right.
>ahem< This is going to vary from one nation to another. For example, here in the US, despite our love affair with the automobile, the courts have very firmly upheld that yes, indeed, driving is NOT a right. In the US.
I'm not familiar with how things are done in the UK, but over here the state you reside in issues a license and you must periodically renew it. If you don't, you lose your driving privileges. Seems to me if it was a right it would be something like voting - you register to vote over here and get a card, but most polling places will accept other ID in lieu of it because you have a RIGHT to vote and the only thing being established is your identity and that you didn't vote more than once.
So, do you have to periodically renew your driver's license in the UK? If so, I'd think that would be the mark of a privilege and not a right.
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Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
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Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.
If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy
Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
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Admiral Valdemar
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It's not required to be renewed, although that could change for elderly people who prove to be hitting an age whereby their reactions are less than sharp.
DPDP's comment is interesting. I'm going to peruse the list of human rights (I already argued that no one has won against HM Govt. in the European Court of Human Rights when denied a licence) and post them up.
Right now, it's ad hominems at dawn. I'm not feeling the love.
DPDP's comment is interesting. I'm going to peruse the list of human rights (I already argued that no one has won against HM Govt. in the European Court of Human Rights when denied a licence) and post them up.
Right now, it's ad hominems at dawn. I'm not feeling the love.
I think that it's not necessarily whether you have to renew the license -- it's whether you have to do anything to earn it. IIRC, voter registration doesn't require you to pass any tests beyond establishing that you are who you say you are and you live where you say you live; on the other hand, privileges have to be earned above and beyond the basic verification of who you are.Broomstick wrote:So, do you have to periodically renew your driver's license in the UK? If so, I'd think that would be the mark of a privilege and not a right.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
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Admiral Valdemar
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... wait, the government exists to serve me and do what I want?! Stop the presses, this has to get out! And here I was, cleaving to noble ideals like "promote the general welfare", "establish the common defense", and "secure the blessings of liberty" to define government's purpose! I was so wrong; government exists to do what I want, not anything else.Some guy on that other forum wrote:But they are here to serve us and to provide us with what we want, so if they stick to the principals of why they are here, which is first and foremost to protect the people of the UK and to serve them (after all we elected them in the first place, so they work for us, they take money out of peoples wages, ie we pay them their money, they are our employees, and will do as instructed by the people)
EDIT:
Seems like a little bit of equivocation here -- he's using a different definition of 'right' than you are, Valdemar. See if you can nail him better on that; a basic human right is not something that has to be earned.Agreed, if they havent passed the test and comply with the driving laws then they do not have the right to drive. Thats right.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
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Admiral Valdemar
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I'm thinking I'm not wanted, and I did bring up the concept of a right being innate and a privilege earned. I did post the HR list for the UK, not that it did much good. It seems I'm just far too depressingly... right.
Incidentally, this is the group who tried to invoke the fuel protests that crippled the nation in September, 2000 for last December. And failed. They all seem to be drivers of quite large cars, so it's quite laughable that they feel inclined to be granted cheap fuel for life as a basic right too.
Zeus, I can't wait to see them react to fuel rationing.
Incidentally, this is the group who tried to invoke the fuel protests that crippled the nation in September, 2000 for last December. And failed. They all seem to be drivers of quite large cars, so it's quite laughable that they feel inclined to be granted cheap fuel for life as a basic right too.
Zeus, I can't wait to see them react to fuel rationing.
You should tell them that they have an American sense of entitlement.Admiral Valdemar wrote:Incidentally, this is the group who tried to invoke the fuel protests that crippled the nation in September, 2000 for last December. And failed. They all seem to be drivers of quite large cars, so it's quite laughable that they feel inclined to be granted cheap fuel for life as a basic right too.
A Government founded upon justice, and recognizing the equal rights of all men; claiming higher authority for existence, or sanction for its laws, that nature, reason, and the regularly ascertained will of the people; steadily refusing to put its sword and purse in the service of any religious creed or family is a standing offense to most of the Governments of the world, and to some narrow and bigoted people among ourselves.
F. Douglass
Re: Debating "Driving Is A Right" Wankers
Remind them that when they get behind the wheel, they are, for all intents and purposes, controlling a multiton missile of pure death and horsepower.Admiral Valdemar wrote:I'm currently embroiled in a little dispute on a driver's board (but of course) over this issue. Now, I've mentioned how driving is not a right like freedom of speech, the right to an attorney and health care etc., but still they come up with the bullshit "I have earned the licence, committed no offence so the government cannot do fuck all to me!" line of reasoning.
The only reason that there are not more missile hits in the cities (so to speak) is because drivers who keep their licences and their lives can keep their missile from hitting anyone else. Very often this is done by following rules and not being morons.
Driving is a privilege because an incompetent and/or neglegent driver can ruin property and lives. When you get your licence you are demonstrating that you are willing and able to keep your missile from destroying things.
Besides, you won't get tortured, killed, incarcerated or starve to death because you don't have a licence. Rights are rights for the right reasons.
Never mind using the appropriate definition, is the way he's using mean 'right' at all? I can't find anything mentioning 'right' as being a synonym of 'privilege' in my dictionary. Sounds to me like these idiots simply don't know what a right really is, and are just throwing the word out in an attempt to insinuate that their rights are being violated.Surlethe wrote:Seems like a little bit of equivocation here -- he's using a different definition of 'right' than you are, Valdemar. See if you can nail him better on that; a basic human right is not something that has to be earned.