Communism and Homosexuality

[Zor]

This was something i was wondering about.

Despite being atheistic (removing Abrahamitic Homosexuality as a big force), the soviet union adopted a bunch of blatently homophobic policies, especially since the Stalin Era to after the fall of the USSR. A similar thing happened in the PRC, only being legalized recently. Now i was wondering, why did this happen? I can't think of any Marxian reason for them to do this, is it just residual homosexuality left over from the pre-communist eras and if not, why did the communist states enforce such supression of homosexuals and such?

Zor

[PeZook]

This was something i was wondering about.

Despite being atheistic (removing Abrahamitic Homosexuality as a big force), the soviet union adopted a bunch of blatently homophobic policies, especially since the Stalin Era to after the fall of the USSR. A similar thing happened in the PRC, only being legalized recently. Now i was wondering, why did this happen? I can't think of any Marxian reason for them to do this, is it just residual homosexuality left over from the pre-communist eras and if not, why did the communist states enforce such supression of homosexuals and such?

Zor

Stalin enforced it, since he wanted to "support the Russian family", and it just continued on from there via legalistic momentum (there was a lot of that in the USSR, with the populace not being able to voice much protest and all). Not very many people know that Stalin actually had a religious education.

And not all communist states were so blatantly homophobic: Poland, for example, had practically no anti-homosexual laws. Culture is another thing, but there were no actual law on the books which allowed, for example, imprisoning gays (I'm looking at you, UK).

[Darth Servo]

The Abrahamic religions have infused society with its cultural "norms". Even though Communism rejects religion, the religion's legacy remained in the minds of the people.

[The Guid]

This was something i was wondering about.

Despite being atheistic (removing Abrahamitic Homosexuality as a big force), the soviet union adopted a bunch of blatently homophobic policies, especially since the Stalin Era to after the fall of the USSR. A similar thing happened in the PRC, only being legalized recently. Now i was wondering, why did this happen? I can't think of any Marxian reason for them to do this, is it just residual homosexuality left over from the pre-communist eras and if not, why did the communist states enforce such supression of homosexuals and such?

Zor

Stalin enforced it, since he wanted to "support the Russian family", and it just continued on from there via legalistic momentum (there was a lot of that in the USSR, with the populace not being able to voice much protest and all). Not very many people know that Stalin actually had a religious education.

And not all communist states were so blatantly homophobic: Poland, for example, had practically no anti-homosexual laws. Culture is another thing, but there were no actual law on the books which allowed, for example, imprisoning gays (I'm looking at you, UK).

In fairness, at that time we were still trying to hold on to an empire and teaming up with the French to invade Egypt so its hardly surprising.

[Rye]

This was something i was wondering about.

Despite being atheistic (removing Abrahamitic Homosexuality as a big force), the soviet union adopted a bunch of blatently homophobic policies, especially since the Stalin Era to after the fall of the USSR. A similar thing happened in the PRC, only being legalized recently. Now i was wondering, why did this happen? I can't think of any Marxian reason for them to do this, is it just residual homosexuality left over from the pre-communist eras and if not, why did the communist states enforce such supression of homosexuals and such?

Zor

IIRC, under Leninism homosexuality was decriminalised (and prior to that, it didn't raise that many eyebrows, even in the church) and then it was recriminalised under Stalin. Under Stalin, the economic and political problems in the soviet system prompted social conservatism, and a totalitarian pressure to conform to a certain way of living your life. As such, various "deviant" things that detracted from being good and producing were criminalised, along with the average totalitarian targets of political dissenters, etc.

[Patrick Degan]

There is also the practical effect that criminalising homosexuality made it easier for the State to prosecute someone if they couldn't actually pin a real crime on them. The manufactured stigma alone would have been enough to destroy someone professionally, and the NKVD would have had an excellent blackmail lever against people they'd want to use to get someone else.

[K. A. Pital]

IIRC, under Leninism homosexuality was decriminalised

It was. Soviet medical personnel even boasted about that to the British. IIRC, the USSR was the first state which recognized homosexuality is not a "sin" but has strictly physiological reasons. However, that was soon to change after Stalin came.

The Abrahamic religions have infused society with its cultural "norms".

Especially more so considering Stalin's own religiosity and heavy promotion of Orthodox Church. Not only minds of the people, but minds of the leaders as well.

I can't think of any Marxian reason for them to do this, is it just residual homosexuality left over from the pre-communist eras and if not, why did the communist states enforce such supression of homosexuals and such?

PeZook already noted that most of it was stemming from Stalin and his "family policy", then just leftover from legalism (Soviet law was rather inert in some ways, if a matter was not considered significant it was just dropped). But not all Soviet states were the same in that regard. There's also a big difference in time periods (as clear even in the USSR example). Cuba in the early revolutionary era criminalized homosexuality, but since the 1980s it is fully decriminalized, Castro's daughter pushes for a center of transgender operations, attends LGBT conferences, promotes their rights and so on.

[Adrian Laguna]

Stas, while referring to Mariela Castro as "Castro's daughter" is technically correct, it implies that her father is Fidel, which is incorrect, her father is Raul. Fidel's actual daughter hates his guts and lives in the US.


Aside from Stalin's ties to the Orthodox Church*, I think part of the reason for anti-homosexual policies in Communist countries is the same reason why the religious taboo exists in the first place: as a rule, homosexuals don't reproduce.

*I bet they would make him a saint if they could get away with it politically.

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah, Mariela I know is not Fidel's daughter she's a Castro family member still.

I bet they would make him a saint if they could get away with it politically.

They served large panichides and still most of the clergy praise him for stopping the "godless Bolsheviks" (even as Stalin himself was a Bolshevik who participated in the Revolution - maybe not that godless compared to Lenin and co who were very staunch secularists, but still)

[Adrian Laguna]

They served large panichides

most of the clergy praise him for stopping the "godless Bolsheviks" (even as Stalin himself was a Bolshevik who participated in the Revolution - maybe not that godless compared to Lenin and co who were very staunch secularists, but still)

He did save them from the dustbin of history, whatever his reasons and beliefs, as an organization they are right to be grateful to him.

[K. A. Pital]

That's an Orthodox posthumous service when a notable guy dies. It was served when he died (as far as I know other Soviet leaders didn't have that), and it's routinely served by the Orthodox Church in his hometown up until now, IIRC. Yes, they do have a reason to be grateful. After all, he let them open so many new temples that Khrushev had to close lots of them and there were still enough and yet newer ones were being built in Brezhnew's time. Orthodoxy could've kicked the bucket were it not for Stalin I guess.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The Red Tsar is fitting in many ways.

[Cecelia5578]

That's an Orthodox posthumous service when a notable guy dies. It was served when he died (as far as I know other Soviet leaders didn't have that), and it's routinely served by the Orthodox Church in his hometown up until now, IIRC. Yes, they do have a reason to be grateful. After all, he let them open so many new temples that Khrushev had to close lots of them and there were still enough and yet newer ones were being built in Brezhnew's time. Orthodoxy could've kicked the bucket were it not for Stalin I guess.

I think a lot of that had to do with trying to enlist the Church's support for the state during World War 2. I'm pretty sure many restrictions were loosened in order to get the Metropolitan of Moscow to come out and support the state.

[Shroom Man 777]

Why? Because Stalin is a God, that's why.

Erm. How about other forms of sexuality? I mean, from Orwell (hurr), it seems like totalitarian regimes like to repress a lot of base human desires. Did that apply to the Soviet Union as well? What was their stance on oral sex, anal sex, pre-marital sex, etcetera?

[K. A. Pital]

Erm. How about other forms of sexuality?

Homosexuality was dubbed a deviation in Stalin's times. Straight sex was a private matter however.

I mean, from Orwell (hurr), it seems like totalitarian regimes like to repress a lot of base human desires.

Orwell's fictious regimes, sure. But in reality? Nazi Germany was repressing homosexuality very severely, yet promiscuity, hookers, erotic vids and all that stuff was present there IIRC.

Now, the USSR was pretty damn legalistic in it's approach, unlike Germany. Criminalization meant there's a legal code - a working one, even if it's atrociously strict and repressive - and it has an article with a number, according to which you can prosecute someone. That's how it went with homosexualism, it was incorporated into the prosecutory codes.

[K. A. Pital]

I'd also note that commie Yugoslavia had hardcore porn screenings. It was the fave of Soviet tourists. Yugos apparently made some erotica on their own; that was brought into the USSR by travellers.

The USSR in the 1960s tried to reverse Stalin's repression on the sexuality subject; from 1960s to 1980s sex guides were mass-printed, which detailed recipes for clitoral stimulation, simultaneous orgasm and many other sexology subjects; I'm pretty certain some of those sex guides included oral sex (mine had).

Also, lesbians were exempt from the homosexualism article IIRC (can't recall on their plight in Stalin's times, only later on), since the legal code article (muzhelozhstvo - man-man sex) specifically targeted male gays.

A one Soviet sex guide I had from the period was pretty damn detailed, with good advice on oral, anal sex. It also briefly mentioned lesbian sex and gave a few tips for lesbians and lesbian relationships. Evidenly my parents used it with good results

Actually the argument that male sex is not different from female-female sex was used in the late 1980s to finally expunge the article 121.

Actually, in Eastern European Communist states the situation was far better (as PeZook mentioned). For example, DDR sexologists in 1981 on a pan-COMECON conference investigated which nations among socialist countries have anti-homosexual laws and the USSR turned out to be the only one with such leftovers (Romanian representatives were not present as Romania by that time went into full autarkia).

As early as 1973, however, the article ceased to be a realistic threat - legal course of Soviet law even printed that "there are no scientific evidence that consentual male homosexuality has any reasons to be legally striken and "there are significant doubts as to whether the male homosexuality article should be maintaned" (Soviet Criminal Law Textbook, 1973, Shargorodsky, Osipov). Heated discussions in the Party and in the huge Soviet scientific community rose fast about the need to openly disparage article 121 and strike it down from the code.

By 1984, the USSR law deparments drafted a new legal code where the article was abscent.

[K. A. Pital]

The final part of the history of male homosexuality.

In 1980s, especially in Gorbachov's time, the ideas to strike the article looked like real. The new draft code and a concerned medical community, and the disparaging remarks from other socialist nations.

However, some pre-and post Gorbachov opinion polls allowed to find out that a large percentage of the population are virulently homophobic, especially towards male homosexuality (lesbianism remained off stage as it usually did).

This led to postponement of the question in higher cabinets and ultimately the legal article was only removed in 1993 Russia. It must be noted that in the latter Soviet and early Russian days this article was used more as a homosexual rape article, since only a fraction of the accused, per the polls, were engaged in consentual sex (IIRC, some ~40-100 average men out of around 1000 yearly)

[TithonusSyndrome]

Especially more so considering Stalin's own religiosity and heavy promotion of Orthodox Church. Not only minds of the people, but minds of the leaders as well.

Could you and/or Adrian offer me some sources on this? I desperately need some for the next debate I stumble into that attempts to tie Stalinism to atheism, and the best defense I have for now is some footnote in Marx's manuscripts.

[K. A. Pital]

...when Stalin died, the Church Patriarch issued the following statement:

Our Great Leader (capitalization from text - SB), Joseph Vissarionovitch Stalin, is gone. Gone is the great power of morality, of the socium, the power that gave the people sense of power...

We, gathered here to pray for him, cannot avoid speaking about his good will, always sympathetic to the Church. Not a single question we asked him was not refused; he cared for all our needs and did much good, using his high position, for the Church. ...

His memory is forever in our hearts, and our Russian Othrodox Church, lamenting his death, gives him a last farewell "to the land of the fathers", with a heartwarming prayer

(From the Panichide of Stalin)

Also there's a common misconception that Stalin only "lifted purges" from the Church during the war. In fact, Stalin did it two years before Germany attacked USSR, as soon as the objections of hte Patriarch about heavy repression of the Church in the Purges (37-39) reached his ears:

Except from protocol of the council of the CC politbureau, 11.11.39

Questions of religion

Regarding religion, the Russian Othrodox Church (capitalization from text - SB) priests the CC concludes:

1) The practice of arresting priests by departments of NKVD USSR should be stopped henceforth.

2) Lenin's order of 1st May 1919 #13666-2 "Combating the popes and religion" adressed to c. Dzerzhinsky and all the follwoing instructions to the VCHK-OGPU-NKVD pertaining the otrodox Church (capitalization from text - SB) - overturned.

3) NKVD should immediately revise all judged and arrested citizens because of Church service. Immediately release them from custody and change their sentence to one without detainment if their actions have not harmed the state.

4) Questions about believers of other confessions who are detained in custody shall be solved by the CC separately.

Secretary of the CC J.Stalin

So not only was Stalin exalted by the then Orthodox Church, he relieved it from repression on demands from it's head clergy two years before Germany assaulted the USSR. "Stalin only did it after Germany attacked USSR hur hur!" is patently false.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Victory and awesome are a poster named Stas.

Thank you!

[PeZook]

Holy fuck, this is awesome. I will print it out, glue it to a steel tablet and smash idiot fundies on the head with it next time any one of them claims Stalin's purges were carried forth under "The banner of atheism"

[K. A. Pital]

Some more stuff to ponder:

The last few years, since approximately 1932, were characterized by a serious weakening of anti-religious propaganda [...] After a big upsurge in anti-religious activity, which coincided with total collectivization and the liquidation of the kulak class, the fight against religion has been weakened in recent times. [...] Since 1932 to 1936 not one of the regional or pan-regional party commitee, not speaking of district commitees, has taken any interest in how anti-religious propaganda is run. The press has also abandoned this task [...] Narkompros has steadily weakened this job, yielding very unsatisfactory results. During the last two years it liquidated a plethora of local anti-religious museums. Instead of improving their expositions and reviving their work, Narkompros has simply closed the museums in Orel, Kursk, Rostov-on-Don, Kuibyshev, Taganrog and several other locations. The House of Anti-religious Education in Leningrad is also closed.

It seems that Stalin was slowly reversing the Party line even long in pre-war years - simultaneous to his consolidation of power (in 1929-1932 his power was not yet consolidated totally, and the great First Wave of industrialization was only starting. You can see how a contemporary Soviet press writer is even disgruntled about the "unsatisfactory" work of Narkompros and unilateral closure of anti-religious museums (those museums were usually located in churches, which meant that the church was either returned to active status or transformed into an "art heritage museum" (as it happened with Isaac Cathedral in Leningrad, which used to be the biggest anti-religious museum in the USSR).

BTW, this is good material for history. Since the history forum has been approved by the Senate, I think keeping eye on this thread and moving it to history when it is opened would be a good idea.