OMFG I think I've turned into an Anti-Abortionist!!

[Stravo]

Doc,

This is just asinine. A woman carries all the responsibility of child bearing, she has to bring it to term, deliver it and if she is willing raise it. A man on the other hand can walk away AT ANY TIME and NOT share in any of these struggles. I have been with the mother of my daughter throughout her pregnancy and I can tell you this, it's not easy nor fun. And all that bullshit about being supportive, etc, don't cut it when you are in the delivery room. As I'm sure evry other father here will attest, when she is going through teh labor and delivering the child, we are nothing more than decorative ornaments in that room. There is no way in teh world I would ever want to go through that pain and I did not feel as if I were "sharing in the moment" as quite frankly the moment was very disturbing to me to see someone I cared about in pain and could do nothign about it.

Now, as a man, you may disagree with the woman having the right to terminate the pregnancy if she wishes but in the end I believe that it is fair because of the harsh and simple fact that a man can always walk away. Child support notwithstanding, and considering the number of dead beat dads out there speaks to this "freedom". A woman is essentially stuck. We are free. Child support, alimony, etc, are the laws' ways of trying to even the balance between men and women when it comes to these issues. (whether we like it or not. For instance I am adamantly opposed to alimony payments after a certain period, particularly with no children in teh picture because quite frankly what right does she have to your money now that you are no longer together...but I digress.)

As to sex and its responsibilties, you have consistently refused to answer the points brought up by Wong and others. You refuse to accept that sex happens and accidents happen during sex. You lump it all together with well you shouldn't be doing it then. I could cross the street and I MIGHT get hit by a car, but I cross the street anyway, now if a cab veers out of control and kills me, is it my fault for crossing the street.? by your logic it is. There is also very human reactions like passion. Are you then going to rule out passionate human emotions, or are you better than us? Perhaps you have this rigid iron will that allows you to be fully in control at all times even when a woman is gently making love to you - OR perhaps you have no clue because you have never had passionate sex - or sex at all. Because anyone that has experienced those heights of passion knows precisely what can happen if the stars are right. Human weakness is not an evil thing to rail against and that is precisely what you are doing.

As to abortion as murder, by your logic, it has the potential to be human thus IS human. When I jerk off, that semen has the potential to be human, am I comiiting some gross sin by doing so...am I murdering a life everytime I wack it? By your logic I am and you have even advocating jerking off in this very thread...try to be more consistent. You must follow all logical conclusions to their ends and by doing so with your arguments you can see your flaws.

But I sincerely doubt you will address these issues, instead snipping what you want to answer with the same broken record you have been repeating in this thread.

[Dargos]

Wow...all I wanted to do is express my sudden "change of heart" on a subject and fundies come out of the wood work. I hope this doesn't put a black mark on any of my future dealings with this forum. But it seems like most of my posts get at least a generate at least a moderate amount of reaction out of this place.

[Lord_Xerxes]

Well said, Stravo. Being that I won't reiterate what you've said in drawn out terms, I'll just say "Ditto".

[InnerBrat]

Moriarity, how DARE you waltz in and declare that a woman should be forced to live with the consequences of sex, as if she always has a choice?

1 in 3 women are raped during their life -from your attitude I'd be surprised if you had any female friends, but you'd be damn well shocked if you knew just how many of the women you've ever met has been beaten and/or raped by their boyfriends, fathers, or strangers on the street... what decision have these women taken which means they deserve to live with bearing the child of this kind of monster? If the rapist boyfriend then decides he wants the child, is it his right to force the woman to carry to term?

Even without the possibilty of rape, if hormonal contraception (99% effectiveness) or condoms (85%) fail, and the woman really doesn't want the child, if you force her to 'take responsibility for her actions' what kind of mother is she going to make? I see you've ignored the other thread on this topic where I mention a study that showed in Sweden, where abortion and birth control are commonplace, child abuse and infanticide are negligible. Every child has the right to be born into a situation wher it is wanted. Do you have any idea what it's like to grow up with a mother who doesn't want to be a mother? Would you inflict that on millions of children for the mistakes of their parents?

[Korvan]

I was adopted and while I'm pretty happy my bio-mom choose not to get an abortion, I'd feel pretty damn shitty if I ever found out that I owe my existance to her being forced to carry me to term.

Sex is not just for procreation. The fact that women still get horny even when they're not in a fertile phase of their cycle atests to this. Amoung some primates, sex is used for purely social reasons as well as reproductive ones.

To truely outlaw abortion whould require the locking up of every pregnant woman. Even then, they'd require a 24 / 7 watch.

What if it was possible to safely extract the embryo and re-implant it into another person? Would the pro-lifers be lining up to volunteer as hosts? The downside would be the baby being raised in a fundy environment.

Just as an aside, it seems to me that the Alien series of movies contains some symbolism regarding this debate. Wonder what a search on the ol' internet will turn up...

[Durandal]

Adoption anyone?

Does the adoption agency pay for the astronomical delivery room costs, as well as compensate the woman for the physical and psychological trauma she must undergo for nine months? If so, then sure.

Physocological trauma? This is birth. It happens millions of times every day.

And people leave children out to rot after having them millions of times a day, too. Does this mean that it isn't traumatic for the child?

By the way, nice job on completely ignoring the physical aspects of childbirth and pregnancy. Ask your mom if carrying your sorry ass was an enjoyable experience.

The burden of proof is on you to show that something which in no way resembles human life is, in fact, human. A clump of cells has no brain stem or detectable consciousness, and thus it is not conscious or self-aware. There is no difference between destroying a 2 week-old zygote and swatting a mosquito.

As for responsibility, you're claiming that, since a woman decided to have sex, she must accept the responsibility of having a child, even if the couple took proper preventative measures, like wearing a condom or using other birth control methods. This is a non-sequiter of epic proportions. You must justify this leap from a decision to have sex to a compulsion to have a child, whether contraception was used or not.

Your current justification (that sex only exists for the purpose of reproduction) is completely irrelevant. It's an assertion that you cannot justify because it is impossible to prove it wrong. Your claim that sex exists solely for the purpose of reproduction makes no predictions and thus cannot be tested. Therefore it is irrational to conclude that sex has any overbearing purpose at all. Even if you used nature as a justification for your assumption, meaning that you claimed since animals only have sex to reproduce, it would be a false analogy and yet another non-sequiter. Just because animals which don't have higher brain functions and are not capable of developing birth control methods have sex only for reproduction has no bearing on what animals with higher order brain function who are capable of developing birth control methods do. Furthermore, sex for pleasure exists in nature; if memory serves, dolphins have sex without reproducing, and dolphins have higher brain functions that the majority of the animal kingdom, so if anything in the animal kingdom should have an impact on what we do, it'd be that.

Furthermore, you're assuming that the way nature does things is automatically the correct way. This is a giant leap in logic. Animals sometimes eat their young in nature; does that mean we should be doing it too? The black widow kills its mate after mating. Should women run around killing men they've had sex with?

[AdmiralKanos]

Well, I'd say that this thread has veered a long way from Dargos' start, and now its only purpose is to show that DocMoriartty deserves his new title: Misogynist Prick. So, I'm locking it down now. If he wants to continue his venomous anti-sex and anti-woman ranting, he can do so in another thread.



May this thread be remembered for DocMoriartty's most unbelievably stupid fucking line ever, in his attempt to dismiss the difficulty of child-bearing and labour: "trauma? This is birth. It happens millions of times every day."