Judging the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12)

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TithonusSyndrome
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Judging the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12)

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

"And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment."

This line stands out to me as peculiar. Most people growing up in a Christified society catch onto the monotheistic theme of Christianity pretty easily, so it's assumed that none of the other gods that were worshiped by other nations in the OT were ever real as YHWH is stated to be. This line, though, suggests otherwise. So either one of two things is going on here; YHWH, who in the Bibleverse is totally real, is going to oust the Egyptian gods for not being real and therefore "judge" them... or he's going to somehow take them all to to his own divine court, try them and penalize them. How the fuck does that work? There's one of him and dozens at least in the Egyptian pantheon; is there some kind of Inverse Deity Law analogous to the one for ninjas? Or is he going to go all Judge Dredd on their asses and just dole out the judgments on the spot?

Sure, there are lines about him being the "only" god, but that could just as easily be a forceful statement intended to drive home his supremacy to his followers rather than a literal one. In fact, in a time of superstitious Bronze Age nations, I would think it would be common practice for a nation to assume that "their" gods were responsible for their creation, their neighbors' for creating them, and so on, without constant bickering over whose was real. Most religious disputes from antiquity strike me as being more like pissing matches over whose gods were stronger, not whose was real. What's the general consensus on the ancient Hebrew perspective of the authenticity of foreign gods?

And who wants to draw a picture of Judge God in a firefight with the Egyptian pantheon? :D
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Re: Judging the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12)

Post by B5B7 »

Maybe this is why we haven't been hearing from Yahweh for the past 2 millennia - he took on the Egyptian gods - and lost. :lol: We have seen in Doctor Who that Sutehk is much more powerful than any feats of Yahweh, so Yahweh had delusions of grandeur and took on more powerful foes. :evil:
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Re: Judging the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12)

Post by Samuel »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCp-gOMhsnE

You mess with the best and you die like the rest Yanewah.

I think the Jews were origionally polytheistic, recognizing other Gods. That is why the Lord is a jealous God after all.
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Re: Judging the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12)

Post by Gil Hamilton »

Hebrews were most likely originally polytheistic, which is why alot of older Hebrew texts/traditions have "elohim" rather than "el". Note that "elohim", under normal Hebrew grammar rules, is plural... except that it was retconned so that "elohim" is the exception to that.
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Re: Judging the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12)

Post by Darth Ruinus »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:
And who wants to draw a picture of Judge God in a firefight with the Egyptian pantheon? :D
Yes.

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It's on its side, I know, but turning it so it would be correct makes him look really thin, and makes the whole picture look stupid.
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Re: Judging the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12)

Post by ray245 »

I thought that in the early period of Jewish religion, Yahweh is a god of war?
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Re: Judging the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12)

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

Gil Hamilton wrote:Hebrews were most likely originally polytheistic, which is why alot of older Hebrew texts/traditions have "elohim" rather than "el". Note that "elohim", under normal Hebrew grammar rules, is plural... except that it was retconned so that "elohim" is the exception to that.
I was aware they probably didn't start out monotheists, Plato bears more responsibility for the concept than the ancient Hebrews do. I just wasn't sure if they accepted the existence of gods from nations outside of their own.
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Re: Judging the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12)

Post by Solauren »

You know, so much of the bible makes sense if Y picked a fight with Ra and his buddies, got his ass handed to him, and then decided to reform (once he recovered) to prevent another pounding.....
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Re: Judging the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12)

Post by Rye »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:Hebrews were most likely originally polytheistic, which is why alot of older Hebrew texts/traditions have "elohim" rather than "el". Note that "elohim", under normal Hebrew grammar rules, is plural... except that it was retconned so that "elohim" is the exception to that.
I was aware they probably didn't start out monotheists, Plato bears more responsibility for the concept than the ancient Hebrews do. I just wasn't sure if they accepted the existence of gods from nations outside of their own.
There's a bit in Deuteronomy where it says Yahweh is the God of Israel and it explains that the different gods (members of the "Heavenly Assembly") have stewardship over the different tribes and nations. Of course, there's the other example in Exodus of Moses and his stick turning into a serpent and the court magicians being able to replicate that without appealing to YHWH. The Heavenly Assembly is an assortment of gods that live atop mount Zaphon in Canaanite religion, remarked upon in places like Ugarit. Over time different gods are relogated to minor divinity status, get turned into demons and angels and saints.
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Re: Judging the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12)

Post by Surlethe »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:Sure, there are lines about him being the "only" god, but that could just as easily be a forceful statement intended to drive home his supremacy to his followers rather than a literal one. In fact, in a time of superstitious Bronze Age nations, I would think it would be common practice for a nation to assume that "their" gods were responsible for their creation, their neighbors' for creating them, and so on, without constant bickering over whose was real. Most religious disputes from antiquity strike me as being more like pissing matches over whose gods were stronger, not whose was real. What's the general consensus on the ancient Hebrew perspective of the authenticity of foreign gods?
I'd always assumed that the lines about Yahweh being the "one true God" have to do with faithfulness. In other words, Yahweh's never going to abandon them and fuck off to some other tribe of goat-herders who are willing to sacrifice 10% more goatflesh each year. When you see it, it sounds more like a guilt trip every time; one of the major recurrent themes of the Old Testament is the Israelites being unfaithful, punished by God, returning repentant, and God being happy again.
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Re: Judging the gods of Egypt (Exodus 12:12)

Post by Stark »

Well, being a god in such a situation is always going to be a protection racket. Didn't pay up? Wouldn't want something to get broken!
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