Daniel 2

[Alerik the Fortunate]

Since I was being pestered by Christians on campus again recently, this came up, and I hadn't thought about it much since my deconversion, but thought it might be a topic of interest. In chapter 2 of the book of Daniel, King Nebuchadnezzar has a dream of a statue with a head of gold, shoulders and arms of silver, belly of brass, legs of iron, and feet of iron mixed with clay, which is interpreted to predict the coming of empires of successively greater extent but "inferior quality," whatever that means, exactly. This statue will then be smashed by a stone from heaven that expands to fill the whole earth.

This is usually, in my experience, interpreted to predict the rise of the Medo-Persian, Macedonian, and Roman empires, including the division of Eastern and Western empires, and subsequent nations in Europe, followed by the second coming of Christ and the kingdom of God on earth. Are there any other interpretations of the specific empires that are commonly accepted (the European tribe/nations are variously shoehorned into the ten toes model by different methods)? I also know very little about the dating and redaction of the text of Daniel, if anyone can point to some clues there.

When I mentioned that these were supposed to be "world ruling empires", and most of the world was untouched by them, the missionaries resorted to the usual, "they meant just the part of the world they knew about" which seems to make Europe somewhat out of the picture, but ironically seems to point toward the rise of Islam, since that is the theocracy that most directly controls that part of the world now, and fits in with the sequence. Now even if there were some predictive element in this "prophecy," it wouldn't validate the rest of the Bible,which is unsalvageable as a belief system, but I'm curious how the story is dealt with in more skeptic circles, since some churches tout this as one of their most important proofs of scriptural inspiration.

[SisterMiriamGodwinson]

When I mentioned that these were supposed to be "world ruling empires", and most of the world was untouched by them, the missionaries resorted to the usual, "they meant just the part of the world they knew about" which seems to make Europe somewhat out of the picture, but ironically seems to point toward the rise of Islam, since that is the theocracy that most directly controls that part of the world now, and fits in with the sequence. Now even if there were some predictive element in this "prophecy," it wouldn't validate the rest of the Bible,which is unsalvageable as a belief system, but I'm curious how the story is dealt with in more skeptic circles, since some churches tout this as one of their most important proofs of scriptural inspiration.

A transcontinental empire in the old days would probably be considered a world empire.

[Alerik the Fortunate]

You are a nitwit.

[Alerik the Fortunate]

Apologies for the poor taste to post immediately, but I found this to be delicious. Has anyone else encountered Church of God types emphasizing these prophecies?

[Rye]

Now even if there were some predictive element in this "prophecy," it wouldn't validate the rest of the Bible,which is unsalvageable as a belief system, but I'm curious how the story is dealt with in more skeptic circles, since some churches tout this as one of their most important proofs of scriptural inspiration.

Hah. Well, looking at Daniel 2 now, my Bible points out:

2.1: Second year is 603 BCE; the inconsistency with 1.1, which claims Nebuchadnezzar had been ruling 3 years before bringing Daniel to Babylon, suggests that the chapters were composed separately.

So it's unlikely that it was handed down from God. According to the preface before the book of Daniel:

Dan 2.4b-7.28 is written in Aramaic, the common language of the near east from the time of the babylonian exile until the conquests of Alexander the Great

41: A divided kingdom is the division of Alexander the Great's empire among his four generals. Judea fell under Ptolemaic (Egyptian) control during 323-198 BCE, and then, until Maccabean rule in 163 under Seleucid (Syrian/Greek) control. 43: In Marriage, intermarriage between Egyptian and Seleucid dynasties in 252 and again in 194/93 BCE (see also Dan 11.6n.,17) did not prevent conflict. 44: A kingdom that shall never be destroyed is Israel as the jews retained their identity despite political changes.

Seems to me that it was just written after the things it was supposed to be predicting.

[Darth Wong]

The Book of Daniel is the oldest scam there is. Write a bunch of "predictions" about Alexander's empire splitting into four pieces, and then claim that you actually wrote it one or two centuries earlier.

The Book of Daniel "predicted" the division of Alexander's empire into four pieces after his death. It did not predict the division of the Roman Empire, or the fall of its western half, or the much later fall of its eastern half, or the Dark Ages, or the shift of power westward toward Spain and England, or the shift of power even further westward toward the then-unknown lands of America.