Interesting moral dilemma

[Admiral Valdemar]

There's nothing wrong with having a utilitarian outlook on life. That said, lacking any humanism or empathy allows you to, very machinelike, rationalise away the lives of others with contemptuous ease. If you're looking at numbers like dollar value rather than actual lives, it's child's play to write off another person for some perceived advancement of society as a whole.

[Darth Ruinus]

Erik von Nein I did say that children were investments, though I did not think of the fact that they are investments to the society at large too, perhaps more so than to the parents (as I can't see children as good investments, since they pay back nothing)

Sriad, the government wouldn't leave you in the cold. In fact it would give you free aid, but only such much as you are worth. Again, a man worth say, $250,000 who suddenly finds himself out on the streets (for whatever reason) would receive free care and aid from the goverment that is equal to $250,000.

Criminals? I frankly don't care about criminals, as my thinking doesn't involve punishmeny it only involves aid and how much aid a person is entitled to before the helper (the dad, wife, brother, medical aid company, goverment etc etc) can decide "Ok, you've taken your free share, and you've taken more than I can expect you to pay back, you are on your own now."

I would feel appalled if the US did such a thing, because the crime does not meet the punishment. Maybe if they were all mass murderes or something, then it might be ok, depending on the requirements needed to execute people.

Admiral Valdemar On a gut feeling, yes I would support the death penalty, depending on the severity of the crime.

Broomstick and Erik von Nein Yes, on further reflection, you are quite correct that I am "fucking ignorant". As such, I will drop the point entirely (though I still think, at best, that people can be judged (in some way) of how much help they are "entitled" to) and concede my massive ignorance on the topic. I need to investigate much further into the laws and such.

EDIT:

Actually, my dad may or may not be unemployed right now (He doesn tell us, and we don't know exactly how many hours he is working right now), and our gas service just got cut on Thursday (and as far as I can tell from my parent's finances) we can't pay it back anytime soon. My moms paycheck was witheld (she won't tell me why beyond problems at work). I also hope I never have children of my own, as I see no benefit from doing such a thing.

Actually, if I fuck up my life in some truly colossal way, then yes, I would take the blame and not expect any help.

[Erik von Nein]

Erik von Nein I did say that children were investments, though I did not think of the fact that they are investments to the society at large too, perhaps more so than to the parents (as I can't see children as good investments, since they pay back nothing.

Children pay back into society when they become adults through taxes and whatever job they end up taking. They pay back their parents by contributing to their support (either directly or not) when they become too old to work. That's how they pay back the money invested into helping them grow up. Otherwise society would have collapsed ages ago.

EDIT: Removed sarcastic remark.

[Broomstick]

Sriad, the government wouldn't leave you in the cold. In fact it would give you free aid, but only such much as you are worth. Again, a man worth say, $250,000 who suddenly finds himself out on the streets (for whatever reason) would receive free care and aid from the goverment that is equal to $250,000.

And how much have YOU earned in your lifetime?

Are you aware that, even for the destitute and homeless, even for those who have never earned a dime in their lives, courts will frequently award sums of a million dollars or more in a wrongful death suit? It seems society assigns a different value to life than you do.

Broomstick and Erik von Nein Yes, on further reflection, you are quite correct that I am "fucking ignorant". As such, I will drop the point entirely (though I still think, at best, that people can be judged (in some way) of how much help they are "entitled" to) and concede my massive ignorance on the topic. I need to investigate much further into the laws and such.

Please do.

Actually, my dad may or may not be unemployed right now (He doesn tell us, and we don't know exactly how many hours he is working right now), and our gas service just got cut on Thursday (and as far as I can tell from my parent's finances) we can't pay it back anytime soon. My moms paycheck was witheld (she won't tell me why beyond problems at work).

NOW I'm concerned about you. The indications are bad, Darth, very bad. I truly hope you do not find yourself even as bad off as I am, much less worse.

You may wish to start looking for work yourself.

I find it a little mind-boggling your parents aren't forthright about the work situation. When I was 6 years old and my dad was laid off my parents announced it to all of us shortly before instituting austerity measures. Granted, my comprehension was limited at that age, but my parents at least let us know what was going on. You're legal adult, correct? And you don't know? It seems... odd at best.

Actually, if I fuck up my life in some truly colossal way, then yes, I would take the blame and not expect any help.

The thing is, society helps the fuck ups because sometimes, given a chance, they go on to do good things later in life. Investing in such doesn't always pan out, but it does often enough that at least some of us feel the effort is worth the risk.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I don't see why society should operate on a cost to benefit ratio for such things like keeping people in work and healthy, rather than unemployed and in the gutter. The mark of a civilised people is how it treats those less fortunate than others, and a libertarian world that basically forces people to accept that if they fuck up, they're on their own and take their lumps regardless is not one conducive to a fair or stable world. The welfare state may have some very big issues to iron out, but it is far more preferable over the uneven playing field model of a free market system where morals and rights are dictated by economic impact. True, money makes the world go round and we can't throw trillions at homeless people (unlike the oh so useful banks), however, that does not excuse that it is repugnant to consider such endeavours a lost cause and not worthy of a penny in aid should the possibility exist that these people would not be able to pay it back (with interest) or field a cure for cancer or some amazing symphony.

Any city that was educated to embrace such a lifestyle, would no doubt be fully prepared to accept this man's predicament and not voice distasteful comments simply because their commute is being affected or tax dollars "squandered".

[Darth Ruinus]

Erik von Nein Yes, you are correct, I had not considered this angle. I suppose then, that someone truly commited to helping mankind out would have children, who are taught good moral values and given a good education, so that they may also contribute to the push to better our lives?

Broomstick Honestly, I have never worked in my life, I have always been focused on my schoolwork. Recently I have been making the push to get a job, but my parents wont allow it, even though I can clearly see (and they very well know) that we desperately need another source of income, they much prefer I stay only focused on my schoolwork.

Yes, it does seem that society awards life a different value than I do.

Honestly, I was not aware that you are in an economic slump. I know very little of the private lives of the members of this board. I hope you find work (if that is what you are missing) soon.

Yes, I am very much eager to work, I know damn well we need more money right now, but as I said, my parents wont allow it. They are concerned that I, like a few of our neighbors kids, would become used to money and ignore my schoolwork. While I assure them this is not true, they will not have it. Although I am starting to think it would be better if I ignored them and got a job anway.

Yes, it is odd. My mom is the one who was honest, she came home recently and told me what was up. She has always been honest with us in that regard, and thankfully me and my brother aren't very much concerned with "stuff" so we have been understand when it comes to "Money is tight, we can't afford luxuries right now." The reason we don't know how many hours my dad is putting in right now is because-- Actually, if you don't mind, I would rather not say. I am feeling very uncomfortable even beginning to discuss matter of my parents or family. Anything about me I don't mind, but I don't have the right to go about blabbering about my parents. The hypocrisy, I know.

Anyways, yes, I have much more thinking and reading to do on this matter.

[Broomstick]

Broomstick Honestly, I have never worked in my life, I have always been focused on my schoolwork.

While that's laudable (my parents, also, insisted that their children prioritize education over work until our education was complete) at a certain point you need to become truly independent.

Honestly, I was not aware that you are in an economic slump. I know very little of the private lives of the members of this board. I hope you find work (if that is what you are missing) soon.

I was laid off a very nice job in November, 2007. Since then, I have not had steady work. I recently managed 38 hours in one week. That's the most I've pulled in since 11/07. Even when I do work, I am earning 1/3 an hour compared to what I did before. That's with over 25 years of work experience and a college degree.

Finding work is VERY difficult right now.

Oh, yes - we lost our health insurance when I lost my job. So I am trying to support a disabled spouse requiring daily medication on somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 what I used earn, with no health insurance whatsoever until I got us onto a state program in November of this year. So, you see, discussions of the worth of the disabled are far from academic for me. It's something I deal with every single day.

Although I am starting to think it would be better if I ignored them and got a job anway.

That is up to you.

Actually, if you don't mind, I would rather not say. I am feeling very uncomfortable even beginning to discuss matter of my parents or family. Anything about me I don't mind, but I don't have the right to go about blabbering about my parents. The hypocrisy, I know.

Personal boundaries, I'd say. That's not hypocritical, that's not revealing personal information you don't want public and perfectly acceptable.

[Garlak]

Hmm... Let me have a whack at this and see if I've understood DR's points, and can convey them adequately. I think I'm kind of getting his points, but the way the position is being argued makes one look like a cold, fucking douchebag.. I'll try to use analogies...


The length and quality of human life isn't something that can be reduced to a monetary value. You can calculate expenses and costs of living, true, but you can't put an objective "correct" material value on this.

DR is trying to compare one person's quality and length's to that of others. Comparing the man stuck under the train, to all the people who's lives are disrupted. He's trying to make the connection by assigning monetary values to the man's life, and to the the effort it'd take to keep him alive... And "the effort it'd ta e.t.c., e.t.c." is analogous to 'the value of the quality of the lives of everybody else affected by this.'

His examples of people being given aid based upon how much they have contributed, or upon how much they can get done, are poor generalizations of how you can value human life... But to draw some more relevant and better-fitting analogies; Darth Ruinous seems like a person who would elect to take somebody off of life-support, if they had no chance of recovery. In short; their life would suck, it would be expensive, and the lives of their loved ones would suck too... On the other hand, if the chance for recovery is good; keep them on life support depending on how much you can afford to do so.

The... different "costs" and "values" is a monetary, ah, analogy as to the general importance of... Fuck, dammit.

If you saw some random person out on the street get hit by a car, you'd call an ambulance and try to help that person. But you wouldn't break your back doing so. If it was someone important to you, a family member, they'd be "worth" more to you. Because they're family. Closer to you, have contributed more... get the general gist?

To take the longer view of the Crushed Train Dilemma... let's look at Third World countries. For a lot of people, life there sucks. Why aren't First World countries rushing out to take care of these countries "crushed under the trolley"? Because they're not connected.. They're outside the social, political, economic,whateverthehell, network...

To you, your loved one is worth a fortune. To someone who has no clue who the hell they are, they're worth maybe 5-10 minutes of their time, because they have no clue who they are.

[Erik von Nein]

Erik von Nein Yes, you are correct, I had not considered this angle. I suppose then, that someone truly commited to helping mankind out would have children, who are taught good moral values and given a good education, so that they may also contribute to the push to better our lives?

Essentially, yes. I don't see how society could advance if people weren't raising the newest generation to be better than they were.

[Darth Yoshi]

Um... shouldn't you ask the man's opinion about this? Maybe HE would prefer to live, even immobile. This would appear to be a situation where you can actually ask the person in question his preferences so I can't see how you can justify making this decision for him without consulting him first!

I apologize for the misunderstanding. If the man truly does want to continue in this state, of course I don't have the right to arbitrarily sentence him to death. The problem is that I just can't imagine choosing to live like that, and I have difficulty believing anyone would choose to. In the case of the handicapped, as difficult as their lives are, they can at least find some sort of release, some way to enjoy themselves. The man in the OP is supposed to be trapped in that position for the rest of his life, likely to become little more than a curiosity. That is the difference between their situations. I mean, because he's pinned, he can't even shift around effectively to prevent pressure sores or muscular atrophy. Even coma patients don't have that problem to such a degree. In his position, I would choose to die, and I projected my own thoughts and desires onto him. If he does choose to live like that, then probably the fairest thing would be for him to find some way to recompense the commuters who are no longer able to use that particular line.

[Broomstick]

It is hard to imagine living like that. On the other hand, people have chosen to live with locked-in syndrome, where they are completely and totally immobile (communication is usually through eyeblinks) yet retain all sensory imput so, for instance, feel pain from being too long in one position but can do nothing about it. There are also people who (usually due to advanced disease) opt for hemicorporectomy or, essentially, having the lower half of their body removed. Not quite the same situation but both pretty extreme. These situations may seem intolerable to the able-bodied, yet there are people who endure them and express a desire to continue living.

So, I guess I've come to the conclusion that, no matter how horrible I might think a disability to be I really need to find out what the person in question thinks about it. Humans really are amazingly adaptable.