Alexander Technique..Validated alternative therapy.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

It's the meme "RAR! ALL ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE IS BUNK!" running away with our friend, I think. Yes, a lot of it is garbage - but not all of it. Just because you have to wade through a lot of oysters to get a pearl doesn't make the pearl worth less.

Considering the organized Allopaths only stopped trying to "debunk" Chiropractors a few decades ago I'd file it under a misplaced stop order, personally.

Homeopathic thoery is the exact same principle vaccines use.

Homeopathic theory is about as scientifically sound as me claiming to have invented new FTL physics via interpreting the entrails of freshly sacrificed chickens to Al the Cosmic Plumber. Vaccines present the body's immune system with measurable quantities of pathogens rendered sufficiently inert so as to cause an immune response and not a full-blown infection. Homeopathy claims that some substance has incredible medical benefits if you use vanishingly small quantities of it. The dilutions achieved apparently can run up to the order of one active molecule per solar system's mass worth of water.

In short, absolute bullshit.

The body isn't a dead thing. It can respond to threats within limits, but occassionally it can use a little help knowing what it's dealing with. Of course, Homeopathy is not designed to be used in the same way Allopathy is. It's designed for case-by-case system tweaks because everyones bodies respond to things differently.

Homeopathy is designed to be used to separate fools from their money by giving them overpriced sugar-pills.

The Homeopath would argue that the Allopath is the nutty one because they're slamming the system around actually encourages the system to fight the drugs effects to move back towards normalacy.

And the medical doctor, and anyone with a shred of reasoning ability and scientific knowledge would argue that the homeopath is the fruitcake. Of course homeopathic remedies don't "slam the system around." They don't do anything beyond the placebo effect! In fact scientists attempted to overdose on homeopathic sleeping pills. I assure you, they suffered no ill-effects (or any effects at all) whatsoever.

They would point at the ever increasing dosage of Allopathic approach drugs as evidence of that. There's a good amount of validity to that, and there is always the issue of putting unnecessary load on the Liver and Kidneys will get you in the long run. There's something to be said for not using the sledgehammer for every little nail.

And there's something to be said for misleading people into believing that the placebo effect = effective treatment. It's called fraud.

Plus it's not like the Allopaths have actually had something to show for themselves that actually helped you get better until very, very recently in terms of the overall history of medicine. The Homeopaths and traditional herbal remedies have been around a long time. Part of why I'm not calling the Allopaths "conventional."

For something like 99% of the history of medicine, people also believed diseases were caused by evil spirits, the will of the gods, personal failings, and other such nonsense. For 99% of the history of medicine, humans had close to zero knowledge of chemistry, and the scientific method was entirely beyond them. So they tried pretty much all manner of wild incantations and combinations of plants, animals, and minerals. Some "traditional" herbal remedies actually do have some demonstrable medical benefit. The rest either have no effect beyond placebo effect, or are actively harmful! (But not so harmful as to kill someone immediately . . . no, such concoctions would've been discarded early on.) For 99% of the history of medicine, people also had a life-expectancy that was hard-pressed to exceed 40.

And then an interesting thing happened. We adopted the scientific method. We gained an understanding of chemistry, biology, and physiology through rigorous, empirical methods. We used scientific instruments to demonstrate that illnesses were caused by microorganisms, or genetics, or reaction to toxins in the environment. The body is a fiendishly complex set of chemical reactions. Thus, it can be fixed through chemistry. People started living longer, and living healthier. All because of "Western" medicine, or "allopathy" as you call it. Not because of homeopathy, naturopathy, or other sorts of snake-oil peddling quackery.

[mr friendly guy]

Who the hell uses the term allopathy to describe conventional medicine? Well, who else besides homeopaths.

[Stark]

Homeopathy isn't introducing a small amount of a particular threat to allow the body to safely counter it - it's introducing something that ONCE was NEAR a RANDOMLY CHOSEN METAL and expecting that to do jack shit. Wow, 10ppb gold water - that'll heal my body right up.

The retarded idea that 'herbal medicine is old' = 'herbal medicine is good' is so fucking stupid it's not funny. As others have said, people have little idea what 'alternative' medicine means as a term - is it total quakery like homeopathy, or is it somewhat more plausible shit like acupunture, or is it just 'not pills' stuff like chiropractors etc? I'm not talking about how valid any of that shit is, simply the fact that grouping it all together in one term is ridiculous and extremely damaging to the 'alternative' medicine push for acceptance.

[Broomstick]

Who the hell uses the term allopathy to describe conventional medicine? Well, who else besides homeopaths.

Um... osteopaths, if you want an example of a group that actually knows something about modern medicine.

[PainRack]

Homeopathic thoery is the exact same principle vaccines use. The body isn't a dead thing. It can respond to threats within limits, but occassionally it can use a little help knowing what it's dealing with. Of course, Homeopathy is not designed to be used in the same way Allopathy is. It's designed for case-by-case system tweaks because everyones bodies respond to things differently.

Like cure like is NOT equals to vaccination. Even if homeopathy DID stimulate the immune system, the basis of vaccination is not like cure like. Its the fact that presenting an antigen to the body causes the body to generate an immune response. The trick is to present an antigen that doesn't cause disease! What does homeopathy have? Oh, use a substance to cause a similar symptom, and it cure it......... only when you dilute it to infinestimally small amounts. Of course, there's also the fact that we know how the body does generate the immune response. T-cells, B-cells, markers, aggranulation and phagocytosis. B cells memory markers are retained, next time an antigen present itselfs, instead of the "normal" delayed process of generating antibodies , the B cells can start throwing out antibodies immediately. THAT's, vaccination. What's homeopathy?

[Shogoki]

The funniest thing about homeopathy is that if you just drink a glass of tap water you'll likely get more of whatever it is that they're putting in the "good stuff" they're charging for, plus a lot of other stuff that should make you immortal by their reasoning. And then you go and eat a bowl of cereal and you're pretty much overdosed by their "standards".

[Vendetta]

The funniest thing about homeopathy is that if you just drink a glass of tap water you'll likely get more of whatever it is that they're putting in the "good stuff" they're charging for, plus a lot of other stuff that should make you immortal by their reasoning. And then you go and eat a bowl of cereal and you're pretty much overdosed by their "standards".

Ahhh, but it doesn't count unless you've done the special shaking. You have to do the special shaking at every stage of dilution, or it doesn't count.

Anyway, the utility of homeopathy will be whether it can produce a stronger placebo effect than a GP prescribed placebo, which, because the effectiveness of placebo is based on patient (and even doctor) perception is actually possible, and whether this is enough to allow it to take the place of chemically active medicines in situations where there is really no "cure" like long term chronic pain. (many of the medications for chronic pains can only alleviate symptoms, and long term use of them can have unpleasant side effects. A placebo treatment which reduces the pain without the side effects could lead to an overall increase in patient wellbeing.

[mr friendly guy]

If its just a matter of doctors' attitude to produce the desired placebo effect, then simply set up clinics for these chronic conditions eg back pain and have the specialist (usually an anaesthetist for chronic pain or rheumatologist) get some lessons into bedside manner. Also book the clinic sparsely so the doctor has more time to talk to the patient and make the consult seem less business like and more friendly.

What some of these alternate practitioners have over conventional medicine is they have more time to spend with the patient, makes them seem more caring (discussed in Richard Dawkin's doco, "The enemies of Reason").

I would rather health systems did it that way. At least tax payers save money on glorified sugar pills. Or maybe we should just not fund these programs and let patients see the real homeopaths.

[Broomstick]

A placebo treatment which reduces the pain without the side effects could lead to an overall increase in patient wellbeing.

The funny thing is that placebos can have side effects, too! If the patient believes all strong medicine has some side effects, then if he or she believes the placebo is strong medicine he or she will likely also experience some side effect symptoms. Isn't that amazing?

[Vendetta]

If its just a matter of doctors' attitude to produce the desired placebo effect, then simply set up clinics for these chronic conditions eg back pain and have the specialist (usually an anaesthetist for chronic pain or rheumatologist) get some lessons into bedside manner. Also book the clinic sparsely so the doctor has more time to talk to the patient and make the consult seem less business like and more friendly.

Patient belief is just as important though. The extra "ritual" involved in the preparation and presentation of a medicine can affect the way it is viewed by the patient, and thus the effectiveness of it as a treatment, and if there's one thing homeopathy can do, it's build up rituals around it's sugar pills.

I would rather health systems did it that way. At least tax payers save money on glorified sugar pills. Or maybe we should just not fund these programs and let patients see the real homeopaths.

The cost of the clinic and specialist professionals to staff it would probably be similar no matter what brand of placebo you dished out from it. The trouble with people going to see "real homeopaths" is that they have no sense of professional standards, are antagonistic to any other field of pharmacology, and will actively discourage patients from seeking any other form of treatment where it would be more effective than placebo. The problem with homeopathy isn't dishing out a sugar pill at the end of it, it's the lack of professional standards for it's practitioners.

The funny thing is that placebos can have side effects, too! If the patient believes all strong medicine has some side effects, then if he or she believes the placebo is strong medicine he or she will likely also experience some side effect symptoms. Isn't that amazing?

True, it can cut both ways. It would depend whether the side effects are as severe. Analgesics for chronic back pain, for example, can cause permanent liver damage from long term use, if a placebo treatment can reduce pain in less severe cases but produce less severe side effects, it can work alongside the analgesic, with the chemically active medicine kept for days when the pain is unusually severe, thus reducing the incidence of it's side effects as well.

[mr friendly guy]

Patient belief is just as important though. The extra "ritual" involved in the preparation and presentation of a medicine can affect the way it is viewed by the patient, and thus the effectiveness of it as a treatment, and if there's one thing homeopathy can do, it's build up rituals around it's sugar pills.

What exactly do these rituals involve, and can it be replicated for other things. For example you could simply make a show of examining the patient, ie making the exam last longer instead of the efficient way we usually do.

The cost of the clinic and specialist professionals to staff it would probably be similar no matter what brand of placebo you dished out from it. The trouble with people going to see "real homeopaths" is that they have no sense of professional standards, are antagonistic to any other field of pharmacology, and will actively discourage patients from seeking any other form of treatment where it would be more effective than placebo. The problem with homeopathy isn't dishing out a sugar pill at the end of it, it's the lack of professional standards for it's practitioners.

Ok. At least with the professional we can actually decide when to stick with the placebo and the real medication. Or we could simply talk up the real medication to boost the placebo effect. One would think placebo + real effect > placebo effect alone any day of the week

[Vendetta]

What exactly do these rituals involve, and can it be replicated for other things. For example you could simply make a show of examining the patient, ie making the exam last longer instead of the efficient way we usually do.

Mostly it's making the patient feel like they're getting a personalised special snowflake cure just for them, homeopathy's system of provings and highly individualised diagnosis makes the patient feel much more like they're getting a tailored remedy not the same old same old. And also building up the apparent effort and specialness of the cure by the fiddly process one goes through to create it. Sure, you could do that with every GP visit. You'd just need three times as many GPs because it takes three times as long (IIRC, the average homeopathic consultation is about 15 minutes, versus the average GP consultation at 6)

Ok. At least with the professional we can actually decide when to stick with the placebo and the real medication. Or we could simply talk up the real medication to boost the placebo effect. One would think placebo + real effect > placebo effect alone any day of the week

Depends whether the "real effect" is desirable at all. Many times, patients are prescribed an active pill (usually antibiotics) which do absolutely bugger all for the particular problem they have, but make them feel happier that "Something Is Being Done" by the doctor. Essentially the doctor can't do anything about, say, a sore throat, but can give a patient some pills to make them go away and get better on their own. (The prescription of antibiotics unnecessarily has thankfully dropped recently, but I doubt it's been eliminated entirely). This leads to actual damage from side effects to the medication for no benefit to the patient because there is no real medication for whatever they have. (You can read some more about medicalisation, the tendency to look for cures in pills for things pills can't cure here. That's one potential use of a placebo as a "cure", a pill that does nothing for something pills do nothing for, but a psychological response to the tendency to seek pills to cure everything and anything.

The other case, long term chronic pain, may require long term medication for a transient benefit (reduction of pain when it is particularly bad), the medicine can't "cure" the complaint, only suppress it's symptoms, but will have unpleasant side effects, so the ability to use an effective placebo for less severe instances of pain with far less severe side effects than the actual analgesic, and keep the real medicine for when it's really needed, could improve overall patient wellbeing.

[PainRack]

What exactly do these rituals involve, and can it be replicated for other things. For example you could simply make a show of examining the patient, ie making the exam last longer instead of the efficient way we usually do.

To be honest....... the fast and efficient way you guys do it usually just leave the patient having a huge huh? hanging over their heads................

I can imagine why homeopathy or any other alternative medicial practionier with the time and energy to actually explain why they're doing things the way they're are and etc, giving an imaginary control over the process to the patients score better than this.

[Mr Bean]

Note I do intend to respond to Boomstick but due to the work week I have roughly thirty minute a day at present to check the board, and that's limited to moderation and keeping an eye on N&P.

[Broomstick]

I completely understand and I am willing to wait for your reply

If only we all could be fully employed!

[starslayer]

The dilutions achieved apparently can run up to the order of one active molecule per solar system's mass worth of water.

To continue a little further on this: if you were to go to the local health food store and look at a homeopathic remedy, you'll probably see something like "10X concentration" on the label near the "ingredients" section (there's a reason I put ingredients in quotation marks). You might think this means one part in ten, or ten times the strength or something like that, but you'd be wrong. It actually means one part in 10^10, or one part in ten billion. Sometimes you'll see "10C" concentration, which means one part in 10^100! This means there is one molecule of active ingredient for every googol molecules of water! That's far more molecules of water than there are atoms in the universe! And I do mean far more; IIRC, there are something like ~10^70 atoms in the observable universe.

Here's how the mixing process works: first, take one part "cure" to nine parts water, so you have a 1/10 solution. Now, take some of this and mix it with nine more parts water, so you have a 1/100 solution. For a 10X concentration, do this eight more times. For a 10C solution, obviously do this 98 more times. Obviously, you ran out of "cure" particles after about the 23rd or 25th time, and likely long before that. As has already been stated, the only reasons people still believe in homeopathy are the placebo effect and slick salesmen.