"Militant" atheism and family relations - advice needed

[Adam Reynolds]

In my family there is a conflict. While I am atheist, my sister is Mormon and my parents are essentially agnostic . The issue that is arising is that they are pandering towards her religious beliefs and ignoring mine. While when I am able to discuss the issue with my parents privately they agree with me, whenever my sister is around she is allowed to freely state and practice her beliefs without anything said about it. The two most prevalent examples are that before meals we are all expected to be respectful during her prayers and that she sends the missionaries around to talk to us the response is to simply let them give their teachings. I was just trying to figure out the best response to this situation.

Also as a side note the last time I had a discussion with the missionaries, they tried to convince me in the existence of God by comparing it to knowing the existence of Alaska given that I've never been there. However their "evidence" was simply their scripture and that the world around them pointed to a creator.

[Mr Bean]

On your own personal beliefs, you don't need to run out there and declare yourself an Atheist. Atheism does not work that way. You don't believe in God, Gods or any super-intelligent guiding force correct? Then that's fine. You don't need to try and shove it down people's throat. You must be calm, serve as an example, offer an alternative explination. Trying to convert them as the one true voice in the wilderness is just going to get their backs up. After all, you don't have a all powerful mystical deity on your hand to run to. All you have is a conclusion I assume you came to after examining your own beliefs.

As far as prayer before meals, that is politeness not pandering. If she or they start asking you to say grace, then turn them down... politely or the alternative, start developing a good grace mentioning prominent scientists or scientific achievements. However if she wants a moment of silence, give her one. It won't kill you.

Also as a side note the last time I had a discussion with the missionaries, they tried to convince me in the existence of God by comparing it to knowing the existence of Alaska given that I've never been there. However their "evidence" was simply their scripture and that the world around them pointed to a creator.

Try to convert them to Thor the next time they drop by. Seriously, he has scripture too(And it's much more interesting to read) and they have as much evidence for Thor as they do for Mormon God.

More to the point next time be prepared, if they use the Alaska example(And it is a common one) point out that you can find programs about Alaska and see video evidence of it. If you want you can dig up an Alaskan phonebook and call someone in Alaska and ask them to verify their state exists. Also point out, if you had the money you could fly out there point at the ground and say "Yep, looks like Alaska to me".

God on the other hand? This is Mormonism... reference the South Park Episode on this. It's season seven episode twelve. Just cut out the last three minutes of the mindless middle added on to the end and stay with the singing story of explaining Mormonism's beliefs.

[Adam Reynolds]

On your own personal beliefs, you don't need to run out there and declare yourself an Atheist. Atheism does not work that way. You don't believe in God, Gods or any super-intelligent guiding force correct? Then that's fine. You don't need to try and shove it down people's throat. You must be calm, serve as an example, offer an alternative explination. Trying to convert them as the one true voice in the wilderness is just going to get their backs up. After all, you don't have a all powerful mystical deity on your hand to run to. All you have is a conclusion I assume you came to after examining your own beliefs.

I guess the source of my irritation with her beliefs is that I had always thought that she was just as intelligent and rational as I am. We recently had a discussion about evolution, and her response was to simply state "thank you I believe in god" which promptly ended the discussion.

As far as prayer before meals, that is politeness not pandering. If she or they start asking you to say grace, then turn them down... politely or the alternative, start developing a good grace mentioning prominent scientists or scientific achievements. However if she wants a moment of silence, give her one. It won't kill you.

Actually this is a bad example of what I was trying to convey. The better example that I had not thought of during the first post happened recently when the rest of the family went to visit her(she currently lives in Washington while I am in California). While my parents were willing to go to church with her, I chose not to. She became irritated by my choice and was slightly hostile throughout that day and if I try and respond I loose immediately.

Try to convert them to Thor the next time they drop by. Seriously, he has scripture too(And it's much more interesting to read) and they have as much evidence for Thor as they do for Mormon God.

More to the point next time be prepared, if they use the Alaska example(And it is a common one) point out that you can find programs about Alaska and see video evidence of it. If you want you can dig up an Alaskan phonebook and call someone in Alaska and ask them to verify their state exists. Also point out, if you had the money you could fly out there point at the ground and say "Yep, looks like Alaska to me".

I actually said most of the things in the second paragraph. I also was ready to simply point out the flaws in their evidence: that scripture is circular logic and that the world around them was explained by a scientific worldview quite easily, in particular how evolution readily explains the diversity of life. However this brings me to the key of my problem, that if I crush them in a debate I become the villain.

[Adam Reynolds]

I think that a large part of the problem that exists is that my parents are in the position of wanting to keep the family somewhat together even though my sister has gotten married, which as a side note none of my family was allowed to see. I think the concern is that if my parents aren't always siding with my sister, then she will simply stay up in Washington with her husband's Mormon family.

[Alyrium Denryle]

You need to sit down with your parents and have a little chat. Respect is double edged sword, and there is a line between respecting someone else's beliefs and letting them walk all over you. Your parents need to be informed of this difference. Right now the respect that you and your parents afford your sister is not being returned. Sit down, talk to your parents, let them know how much it bothers you, and ask them why they allow it to continue. Then, talk to your sister. make sure she understand that you have no interest in her sky pixie, and that further missionaries will be arrested (or politely sent away).

Might she be pissed? Sure. But just because someone is family does not give them free reign to mistreat you.

[Serafina]

To be honest, i had the same problem (and it still crops up from time to time).

You simply can not convert someone to atheism, because there is literary nothing to convert to.

The only thing you can do is showing them that it all makes sense and that religious belief is unneccessary and useless for daily life.

My little sister is currently christian (while my whole family is officially christian, she is the only one who takes her belief seriously).
I do not care whether or not she beliefes in an afterlife or an omnipotent god.
But i am really worried that she will drift away from reason.

Thus, i regulary show her solutions to her problems that do NOT rely on religion.

Thats the only thing that is important to me, as far as her belief is concerned - that she can actually solve her problems on her own, rather than relieing on her "imaginary friend".

~Fina

[rhoenix]

First of all, only zealots would try to convert others to their beliefs, as it would then reinforce their own by having someone else agree with them. You chose the path of pure reason, with unprovable explanations for things left on the wayside.

On the other hand, your sister's response of "thank you, I believe in god" to your question about evolution just bugs me. I don't have a good solution for you, as when I ran into this with one of my friends, it devolved (heh) into an argument about imagination. Specifically, I accused him of thinking his god is stupid, that such an omnipotent being would be so heavy-handed in its involvement with the universe that it couldn't account for time, and change taking place. I managed to trap him in an argument about time causing constant change and his conception of the universe (and a creator) not allowing for any change to occur, but that's the best I could do.

I mean, good grief, the examples for evolution are literally everywhere - if bacteria have evolved that literally eat and live off of penicillin, if flies that landed in Hawaii lost their wings over time (due to simply not needing them), then where is the argument against evolution being not just a fact, but one of the laws of the universe? But yeah, I know - speaking to the choir.

[Aaron]

I guess the source of my irritation with her beliefs is that I had always thought that she was just as intelligent and rational as I am. We recently had a discussion about evolution, and her response was to simply state "thank you I believe in god" which promptly ended the discussion.

She may well be rational and intelligent when it comes to things that do not butt up against religion, it's called a disconnect. There are people on this very board who do not see that their belief in science conflicts with faith.

Actually this is a bad example of what I was trying to convey. The better example that I had not thought of during the first post happened recently when the rest of the family went to visit her(she currently lives in Washington while I am in California). While my parents were willing to go to church with her, I chose not to. She became irritated by my choice and was slightly hostile throughout that day and if I try and respond I loose immediately.

Depending on how devout she is, your lack of faith is a big problem for her. She believes that you will burn in eternal flame (or whatever the Mormon fad is), that your soul is in jeopardy. That is a powerful motivator for someone.

I actually said most of the things in the second paragraph. I also was ready to simply point out the flaws in their evidence: that scripture is circular logic and that the world around them was explained by a scientific worldview quite easily, in particular how evolution readily explains the diversity of life. However this brings me to the key of my problem, that if I crush them in a debate I become the villain.

Chances are that you will never make her see the problems with her belief, she lives far away with a Mormon husband who is likely more then willing to reinforce whatever beliefs she has when she gets back from seeing you.

Like AD mentions, have a chat, a serious sit down discussion with her and your parents. Be polite and lay out all your concerns and that you don't feel respected. Beyond that there really isn't much you can do, she's an adult and there is no law that says family have to get along. But by laying out all your concerns honestly and politely then the ball is in her court and any future sillyness is at her feet.

But FFS, send the missionaries away, don't even let them in. That stuff is annoying as well as rude.

[Ritterin Sophia]

While I am atheist, my sister is Mormon and my parents are essentially agnostic.

You or your parents don't understand what agnosticism actually is.

[Covenant]

Also, atheism doesn't spring from or increase one's latent rationalism or logic. These are two ways people often arrive at the conclusion because they've sat down and thought about things, and come up with that, but lacking a belief in God--especially if your parents didn't ever give you a faith and you simply grew up without one--doesn't make you any more intelligent than anyone else. Thus it's wise not to act like Mr. Spock amongst the plebians here, and when faith comes up hit it for what actually wrong with it--that it distracts people from real solutions, that it encourages hatred and discord between communities, that the formation of churches creates vast power structures that often use that power against other people, such as how the mormon church swings it's weight in on the gay debate... and that religion is often at odds with science, and science is what will save humanity. And if they balk at that, then they really aren't being agnostic because they're not looking at things rationally. Science is not an atheist's religion, and science was not something that has to be allergic to religion... but science is verifiable and correct, so denying it on a basis of faith is absurd.

Add all these things up and logic really never comes into play, except to say that religion is a ridiculous memetic disease that makes no actual sense, but there are lots of good reasons to be done with it.

[Darth Wong]

In my family there is a conflict. While I am atheist, my sister is Mormon and my parents are essentially agnostic . The issue that is arising is that they are pandering towards her religious beliefs and ignoring mine. While when I am able to discuss the issue with my parents privately they agree with me, whenever my sister is around she is allowed to freely state and practice her beliefs without anything said about it. The two most prevalent examples are that before meals we are all expected to be respectful during her prayers and that she sends the missionaries around to talk to us the response is to simply let them give their teachings. I was just trying to figure out the best response to this situation.

Also as a side note the last time I had a discussion with the missionaries, they tried to convince me in the existence of God by comparing it to knowing the existence of Alaska given that I've never been there. However their "evidence" was simply their scripture and that the world around them pointed to a creator.

She can say grace if she wants, but I don't see why you have to stop eating. Equal treatment would imply that each of you can follow your own customs. You might do so out of respect for her, but she could also say her grace silently and privately out of respect for you, and she isn't doing that.

In university, I saw plenty of students who would say grace quietly by bowing their heads before a meal, but who didn't expect anyone else to join them because they knew they were in mixed company. By expecting you to join her in grace instead of saying grace quietly to herself like those students, she is imposing on you. Since she knows that you do not share her faith, she is imposing on you quite deliberately. I don't get upset when a Christian says grace and expects me to play along if he doesn't know I'm an atheist. I'm not looking to pick fights for no reason. But if he knows I'm an atheist and he still expects me to bow my head for his prayer, then he's basically forcing the issue. He's knowingly attempting to make me observe his rituals instead of my own. Unless I have some particular reason to feel obligated to him (eg- I'm a guest in his house), I would tend to ignore his demand and start eating. I would, however, add that I always respect a Christian's grace in his own house.

As for the missionaries, just refuse to talk to them. Nobody said you have to humour them. When they start talking to you about God, just ask them if they'd mind doing it while you both sit on the couch and watch one of your hardcore porn videos.

[Galvatron]

I would show this cartoon to the missionaries and ask them about the endless celestial sex it mentions...