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Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
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There is surely a way to generalize Lorentz transformations to all local coordinate patches. My hunch (I am about to try to prove this) is that given a nondegenerate bilinear form on a manifold (e.g., the Minkowski metric) the intersection of some arbitrary set of coordinate patches at a point induces a group of Lorentz transformations. In particular, given two overlapping coordinate patches, you have a lifting from the manifold to the Lorentz group which is not in general constant. Right?Kuroneko wrote:What you've described are orthonormal, rather than orthogonal, coordinate systems. At a point, they define three spatial and one temporal axes, all mutually orthogonal, so that of course they are related by a Lorentz transformation, by definition. However, this statement is only locally true, even in the plain Minkowski case--e.g., in normalizing polar coordinates, there is no global Lorentz transformation between the resulting system and the Cartesian one, or the Rindler coordinates corresponding to a uniformly accelerated observer.
You mean a hyperbolic reflection? Can't you characterize the Lorentz group as all of the hyperbolic rotations and reflections that fix the light cone?I'm not sure what you're doing with this, but perhaps one thing to keep in mind is that the Lorentz group is a bit more complicated than the "boost plus rotation" treatment given in many introductory texts. For example, a rotation about a null vector, e.g., one mapping the standard basis vectors to {e0 = [3;-1;2;1]/2, e1 = [1;1;2;0]/2, e2 = [1;-1;1;0], e3 = [0;0;0;1]}, is a Lorentz transformation that is not in that form.
It sounds like you're trying to rediscover the Cartan formalism. If you have one timelike and three spacelike linearly independent vector fields eiμ, then they form a tetrad or vierbein that represents an inner product preserving map between the tangent plane and Minkowksi spacetime:Surlethe wrote:There is surely a way to generalize Lorentz transformations to all local coordinate patches.
The frame metric doesn't have to be Minkowski, but the condition that a transformation of the frame axes preserves the frame metric isSurlethe wrote:My hunch (I am about to try to prove this) is that given a nondegenerate bilinear form on a manifold (e.g., the Minkowski metric) the intersection of some arbitrary set of coordinate patches at a point induces a group of Lorentz transformations.
If the above is what you're looking for, yes, since Λ can vary from point to point.Surlethe wrote:In particular, given two overlapping coordinate patches, you have a lifting from the manifold to the Lorentz group which is not in general constant. Right?
If you allow all possible compositions while including elliptic rotations (in space), yes. Hyperbolic rotations have two null eigenvectors, whereas the Lorentz group, neglecting reflections and time-reversals, includes transformations that have only one null eigenvector. But this probably has no relevance to what you're doing, so never mind.Surlethe wrote:You mean a hyperbolic reflection? Can't you characterize the Lorentz group as all of the hyperbolic rotations and reflections that fix the light cone?
Oh dear...Surlethe wrote:While I work through the Cartan formalism (shame on you for presenting it in coordinate form!), ...
Well, the direct meaning is just that Maxwell's equations are invariant under time-reversal, but the way this works out in practice is actually pretty interesting. If you have a source four-current J, then the electromagnetic field Fμν = ∂[μAν] has ∂μFμν = Jν, up to some constants (this is equivalent to Gauss and Ampère-Maxwell laws, as I've noted before). Fixing the Lorentz gauge (∂μAμ = 0), this reduces to ∂μ∂νAα = Jα. This is exactly the wave equation with a source term.Surlethe wrote:... is there any physical meaning at all to reflections across the light cone? (In other words, toss out temporal causality.)
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In a sense yes, although I suppose in practice this is analogous to the difference between active and passive transformations in other contexts. Transformations of the vierbein/tetrad frame genuinely distort the geometric objects on the manifold, whereas coordinate transformations do not.Surlethe wrote:So vierbiens are simply a different way of looking at (some) coordinate systems? Given a vierbien on a Lorentzian manifold, you should be able to go to a coordinate system on the open patch on which it is defined simply by picking an arbitrary point and identifying the flow of each vector field from that point with the coordinate axes under the system.
Right. If you want to know what a result means physically, you better have an orthonormal vierbein ready. It's a very natural axiomatization of the physical 'frame of reference'.Surlethe wrote:You'll get that subset of the global coordinate systems which correspond exactly to physically realistic ones.
I don't follow. Is the convention to require that for each vierbein frame the metric is always tr(1,-1,-1,-1)? (I.e., given a vierbein frame (d/dx0,d/dx1,d/dx2,d/dx3), pick g such that g(d/dxi,d/dxj) = 0, i/=j, g(d/dxi,d/dxi) = 1 if i=0, -1 else?) It seems to me that you can fix a metric, which fixes a certain class of orthonormal frames (e.g., in the Euclidean metric on an n-dim manifold, those invariant under O(n)), or you can fix a vierbien and declare it orthonormal, leading to some (unique) metric?Kuroneko wrote:In a sense yes, although I suppose in practice this is analogous to the difference between active and passive transformations in other contexts. Transformations of the vierbein/tetrad frame genuinely distort the geometric objects on the manifold, whereas coordinate transformations do not.
Ah, that follows very nicely. And then you make it orthonormal by magicking a metric into existence, as above?Mathematically, we can define a 'vector field' as a section of the tangent bundle, and a 'frame' as a section of the bundle of all ordered bases of the tangent spaces.
It's a very common conventional restriction, but it's not necessary. Typically, the whole point of is to choose a tetrad/vierbein that has some particularly nice adaptation to the problem at hand, and if we're dealing with physics, it is very commonly orthonormal. Not always, though--for example, if we were studying radiation, it is frequently more convenient to use a null tetrad instead. An analogous situation exists in Riemannian geometry--e.g., we can have a moving frame on the entire torus or sphere, whereas coordinates necessarily fail to be global on those manifolds.Surlethe wrote:I don't follow. Is the convention to require that for each vierbein frame the metric is always tr(1,-1,-1,-1)?
Sure, you can do it both ways. Since the frame fields form a basis at every tangent plane, one can define the metric as whatever makes some arbitrary frame orthonormal. That would involve deforming the manifold, though.Surlethe wrote:It seems to me that you can fix a metric, which fixes a certain class of orthonormal frames (e.g., in the Euclidean metric on an n-dim manifold, those invariant under O(n)), or you can fix a vierbien and declare it orthonormal, leading to some (unique) metric?
Yes, but in practice, the vierbein encodes the metric automatically (computationally in the sense that the components eiμ do), so one isn't free to redefine it once that's written down.Surlethe wrote:Ah, that follows very nicely. And then you make it orthonormal by magicking a metric into existence, as above?
So, for instance, if one were to study a rotating black hole, one would pick a rotating frame; if one were to study a neutron star binary, one would pick rotating-rotating frames, etc.Kuroneko wrote:It's a very common conventional restriction, but it's not necessary. Typically, the whole point of is to choose a tetrad/vierbein that has some particularly nice adaptation to the problem at hand, and if we're dealing with physics, it is very commonly orthonormal. Not always, though--for example, if we were studying radiation, it is frequently more convenient to use a null tetrad instead. An analogous situation exists in Riemannian geometry--e.g., we can have a moving frame on the entire torus or sphere, whereas coordinates necessarily fail to be global on those manifolds.
Isn't this what you meant when you said that changing between frame fields changed the geometry?Sure, you can do it both ways. Since the frame fields form a basis at every tangent plane, one can define the metric as whatever makes some arbitrary frame orthonormal. That would involve deforming the manifold, though.
http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs088.snc ... 3049_n.jpgOh dear...While I work through the Cartan formalism (shame on you for presenting it in coordinate form!), ...
No. Doing so does not change the geometry of the manifold, but it does change the frame field on that manifold--I only meant that the frame field is a geometrical construction itself. This is in contrast to coordinates, which do not change any vector fields, just their expression in the chosen coordinates (and indeed coordinate transformations do not change the tetrad-frame components of tensors, once they are expressed in that way).Surlethe wrote:Isn't this what you meant when you said that changing between frame fields changed the geometry?