On the Worth of Humanity

[ChromodynamicGirl]

They would argue wrongly, since a defining characteristic of a 'two-legged herd animal' is it's ability to blend easily with the herd. I'd also like to see someone argue that low-functioning autism or Aspergers is 'better' than the average quality of life. Remember, not everyone is goddamn high functioning.

If somebody doesn't like it I have nothing against them using whatever sort of technological aid they want to. I just don't appreciate the hubris of regular people who think they're so great just because they share the same sucky traits of the rest of this idiot species.
The great mass of mankind are worthless, the only excuse for this race is its H.L. Menckens and Richard Wagners.

[Thanas]

Why Wagner?

[ChromodynamicGirl]

Why Wagner?

Awesome music, good philosophic elements in his opera, and very clever deployment of Germanic mythology. I suppose he went wonky in his later years, but I prefer crazy bizarre theories about Jews to the tedious, everyday crazy, bizarre stuff people believe.

[Rye]

If somebody doesn't like it I have nothing against them using whatever sort of technological aid they want to. I just don't appreciate the hubris of regular people who think they're so great just because they share the same sucky traits of the rest of this idiot species.
The great mass of mankind are worthless, the only excuse for this race is its H.L. Menckens and Richard Wagners.

This reminds me of the dyslexics who go round perpetuating the myth of Einstein not being able to tie his shoelaces and being dyslexic. Mencken definitely wasn't some sort of savant, and the number of claimed super-aspies are well outnumbered by the sorts that forget to wash themselves regularly. Furthermore, the "great men" of history would be nothing if they were hermits in a cave.

Also, if you make exceptions for yourself and great men, your misanthropy is cowardly and dishonest.

[ChromodynamicGirl]

If somebody doesn't like it I have nothing against them using whatever sort of technological aid they want to. I just don't appreciate the hubris of regular people who think they're so great just because they share the same sucky traits of the rest of this idiot species.
The great mass of mankind are worthless, the only excuse for this race is its H.L. Menckens and Richard Wagners.

This reminds me of the dyslexics who go round perpetuating the myth of Einstein not being able to tie his shoelaces and being dyslexic. Mencken definitely wasn't some sort of savant, and the number of claimed super-aspies are well outnumbered by the sorts that forget to wash themselves regularly. Furthermore, the "great men" of history would be nothing if they were hermits in a cave.

Also, if you make exceptions for yourself and great men, your misanthropy is cowardly and dishonest.

I'm not claiming Mencken was aspie, I'm just saying he was awesome. I make exceptions because they're great men because they're great men. To quote Ludwig von Mises, "you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the effort of men who are better than you. If this be arrogance...it still is the truth that had to be said in this age of the Welfare State."
Or, to quote Nietzsche, ""All beings hitherto have created something beyond themselves: and ye want to be the ebb of that great tide, and would rather go back to the beast than surpass man? What is the ape to man? A laughing-stock, a thing of shame. And just the same shall man be to the Superman: a laughing-stock, a thing of shame. Ye have made your way from the worm to man, and much within you is still worm. Once were ye apes, and even yet man is more of an ape than any of the apes. "

[ray245]

I'm not claiming Mencken was aspie, I'm just saying he was awesome. I make exceptions because they're great men because they're great men. To quote Ludwig von Mises, "you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the effort of men who are better than you. If this be arrogance...it still is the truth that had to be said in this age of the Welfare State."
Or, to quote Nietzsche, ""All beings hitherto have created something beyond themselves: and ye want to be the ebb of that great tide, and would rather go back to the beast than surpass man? What is the ape to man? A laughing-stock, a thing of shame. And just the same shall man be to the Superman: a laughing-stock, a thing of shame. Ye have made your way from the worm to man, and much within you is still worm. Once were ye apes, and even yet man is more of an ape than any of the apes. "

So why are they great men? Because you say so, and your opinion carries more weight than anyone else?

[Rye]

I'm not claiming Mencken was aspie, I'm just saying he was awesome. I make exceptions because they're great men because they're great men. To quote Ludwig von Mises, "you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the effort of men who are better than you. If this be arrogance...it still is the truth that had to be said in this age of the Welfare State."

Indeed; and this applies to all great men too. To quote Newton, "I stand on the shoulders of giants". Society itself - and the common language it's based on, are key to any "great" success, and it's built on the backs of the people who work in McDonald's. Without them to recognise and realise, no great work would ever happen.

Or, to quote Nietzsche, ""All beings hitherto have created something beyond themselves: and ye want to be the ebb of that great tide, and would rather go back to the beast than surpass man? What is the ape to man? A laughing-stock, a thing of shame. And just the same shall man be to the Superman: a laughing-stock, a thing of shame. Ye have made your way from the worm to man, and much within you is still worm. Once were ye apes, and even yet man is more of an ape than any of the apes. "

That romantic nonsense has no purpose here, none of the "great men" were supermen; they were men who innovated a lot in their respective times, as enabled by the society of "lessers" without which there'd be nothing. Think about Ozymandias while you're at it.

In the meantime, being less of a pseudo-nazi fuck and learning some humility might do you good.

[Lagmonster]

I've split this out of the Autism thread in N&P because it was slowly developing a life of its own.

For the record, I will remind everyone that we do not punish differences of opinion; in fact, we encourage them because otherwise we eventually tune out all but our own voices.

I will also remind everyone that this board culture is a double-edged blade: all sides are responsible for the quality of their arguments, may not dog-pile single opponents, are not welcome to ignore arguments that are rude or thoughtless so long as they can be refuted, and are absolutely and above all else required to furnish their arguments with objective evidence and logical consistency.

[ChromodynamicGirl]

"That romantic nonsense has no purpose her"
For one thing, I seriously doubt you have any idea what Nietzsche meant by superman/overman, secondly your casual discarding it as 'romantic nonsense' betrays your bias. Reality is not egalitarian; and the average human is all the more pathetic because he uses all his brains trying to figure out what other people want him to believe and say.

So why are they great men? Because you say so, and your opinion carries more weight than anyone else?

Because they have personal qualities and abilities and could think and value for themselves. If you want to worship herd animals go ahead, but I feel no inclination to give your opinion any consideration. I haven't the slightest interest in convincing the majority, indeed if I did it would make me suspicious. If a block-head makes me out to be in the right I grow suspicious of my right.
I neither see nor feel any need to justify my values, they are the source of all justification.

[Rye]

"That romantic nonsense has no purpose her"
For one thing, I seriously doubt you have any idea what Nietzsche meant by superman/overman, secondly your casual discarding it as 'romantic nonsense' betrays your bias.

Of course it is romantic nonsense. I am familiar with the concept, I just do not buy it. People do not "transcend" humanity, they do not escape their animal natures. You think that people can think themselves into a "singularity" of personal awakening and supremacy? They cannot. I cannot and you cannot. It is an imaginary ideal attached to flawed notions of freedom that have no basis in our biology. Yes, romanticised nonsense is the exact phrase to use.

Reality is not egalitarian; and the average human is all the more pathetic because he uses all his brains trying to figure out what other people want him to believe and say.

He's biologically built that way; vast specialised resources are devoted to it for all too obvious biological reasons. I love the idea of aspies advocating social Darwinism though... I am sure you'd do well out of society adopting that again.

[Akhlut]

If somebody doesn't like it I have nothing against them using whatever sort of technological aid they want to. I just don't appreciate the hubris of regular people who think they're so great just because they share the same sucky traits of the rest of this idiot species.
The great mass of mankind are worthless, the only excuse for this race is its H.L. Menckens and Richard Wagners.

I find it odd that, in spite of your self-professed love for physics and detestation of most of humanity, you most appreciate a couple of artists, as in people who create works for the great masses of humanity.

I'm not claiming Mencken was aspie, I'm just saying he was awesome. I make exceptions because they're great men because they're great men. To quote Ludwig von Mises, "you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the effort of men who are better than you. If this be arrogance...it still is the truth that had to be said in this age of the Welfare State."
Or, to quote Nietzsche, ""All beings hitherto have created something beyond themselves: and ye want to be the ebb of that great tide, and would rather go back to the beast than surpass man? What is the ape to man? A laughing-stock, a thing of shame. And just the same shall man be to the Superman: a laughing-stock, a thing of shame. Ye have made your way from the worm to man, and much within you is still worm. Once were ye apes, and even yet man is more of an ape than any of the apes. "

I also find it odd that you fetishize "great men" to such an extent, yet fail to realize how much of their greatness is owed to circumstance, serendipity, and infrastructure put into place by other people to allow their "greatness" to flower. Ol' Ludwig was a member of fucking royalty in the Austrian Empire, due to his family's already established wealth and having family who were prominent in government. If he were born a peasant in Lviv instead, do you think he could have gotten the education that gave him fluency in 4 languages by 12 years old? No, he would have been some backwards craftsman who probably would have been drafted in WWI and sent to die fighting the Russians. Nietzsche's family was rich enough to send him to university; had he been some poor farmer's son, would he have gotten his education and been one of the most famous philosophers of the 19th century? Similarly, how many great artists, philosophers, scientists, and statesmen have lived and died as herders, farmers, beggars, lepers, or criminals because they were born in shitty circumstances and weren't allowed to flower?

[Spoonist]

I neither see nor feel any need to justify my values, they are the source of all justification.

But then posting in a forum such as this one is redundant. If you don't feel any need to justify your opinions, then why post them at all?
Or better yet, why post at all here when you are not willing to participate or interact as per its rules?

Are you really this insecure about yourself?

[ChromodynamicGirl]

"I also find it odd that you fetishize "great men" to such an extent, yet fail to realize how much of their greatness is owed to circumstance, serendipity, and infrastructure put into place by other people to allow their "greatness" to flower."
I fail to see the relevance. There are plenty of other people with far more material and existential opportunities who are nonetheless boring cows. A great computer is only possible due to the fact that semiconductor materials are available on the planet. That doesn't diminish it's usefulness.

[Lagmonster]

Apparently people don't listen to the goddamn tyrants who run this joint. I said, "No dogpiling". I meant it. Thanas can reply, he's staff. Rye can reply, he got there first, unless he wants to abdicate in favour of Akhlut. Everyone else are welcome to add opinions, commentary, and original arguments on the thread subject, but burying ChromodynamicGirl in challenges is off limits.

Anyone takes it upon themselves to step over the line, and I will mod the shit out of them.

[ChromodynamicGirl]

Apparently people don't listen to the goddamn tyrants who run this joint. I said, "No dogpiling". I meant it. Thanas can reply, he's staff. Rye can reply, he got there first, unless he wants to abdicate in favour of Akhlut. Everyone else are welcome to add opinions, commentary, and original arguments on the thread subject, but burying ChromodynamicGirl in challenges is off limits.

Anyone takes it upon themselves to step over the line, and I will mod the shit out of them.

This is what I am talking about...herd reflexes. They have sensed an affront to their dogma, and they respond in flocks.

you most appreciate a couple of artists, as in people who create works for the great masses of humanity.

No, they create works for themselves. Either because they enjoy it, or because they want some money out of the deal, or both.

[Ghost Rider]

Apparently people don't listen to the goddamn tyrants who run this joint. I said, "No dogpiling". I meant it. Thanas can reply, he's staff. Rye can reply, he got there first, unless he wants to abdicate in favour of Akhlut. Everyone else are welcome to add opinions, commentary, and original arguments on the thread subject, but burying ChromodynamicGirl in challenges is off limits.

Anyone takes it upon themselves to step over the line, and I will mod the shit out of them.

This is what I am talking about...herd reflexes. They have sensed an affront to their dogma, and they respond in flocks.

No, Lag's point you dipwit is :

Do not "Pile On". Also known as the "me too" or "dogpiling" rule. Don't post in threads just to say you agree or disagree with someone, or that you like or dislike something, without bothering to explain why. Put some effort into your posts.

and you've yet to actually follow:

Back Up Your Claims. If you make a contentious statement of fact and someone asks for evidence, you must either provide it or withdraw the claim. Do not call it "self evident", restate it in different words, force the other person to prove your claim is not true, or use other weasel techniques to avoid backing up your claims.

As I stated before reading the rules will help.

[Akhlut]

you most appreciate a couple of artists, as in people who create works for the great masses of humanity.

No, they create works for themselves. Either because they enjoy it, or because they want some money out of the deal, or both.

Writing books is a terrible way to get money, especially if you're going to publish. Only recently, with Stephen King, J.K. Rowling, and Stephanie Meyer have we seen people actually become seriously wealthy due to writing books. Plus, one has to cede a great deal of creative control to editors and publishers in order to get published. So, to an extent, if one wishes to write, one has to do so for an audience, not solely for one's self.

Music is a bit different, but still similar, especially in Wagner's era. While one could certainly compose music for one's own enjoyment, one was also usually beholden to write the sort of music that one's patron demanded (because even Wagner, in spite of his superhuman greatness, had to eat).

And so it is with every profession. Unless one is willing to be destitute (and probably forgotten), one needs to engage with other people and try to please them to some extent in order to get what one needs and to accomplish "greatness." Aristotle's memory is probably helped by tutoring one of the most powerful monarchs of the classical age, for instance.

[ChromodynamicGirl]

"Unless one is willing to be destitute (and probably forgotten), one needs to engage with other people and try to please them to some extent in order to get what one needs and to accomplish "greatness."
Hey, I have no problem with getting rich off of people's bad taste. That doesn't mean I have any regard for their bad taste.

[Akhlut]

I fail to see the relevance. There are plenty of other people with far more material and existential opportunities who are nonetheless boring cows. A great computer is only possible due to the fact that semiconductor materials are available on the planet. That doesn't diminish it's usefulness.

The point is namely that greatness doesn't just come from some person emanating awesome. Great people come about because of a billion different variables, most of which are not under any of their own control in the least. They do make a contribution, but generally a relatively small one.

Thus, in relation to your original contention that most of humanity is worthless: your statement, while perhaps not false prima facia, is meaningless. We honestly have no idea and no real method of uncovering who is great because a large majority of humanity is stuck in a place where they cannot show their greatness. Thus, you're willing to consign people to the lot of being "worthless" and "boring cows" without actually finding out whether or not individuals are, in fact, worthless or boring cows.

We further have the problem of how can you assert there are a large number of "boring cows" in the world if you self-profess to keep to yourself and not want to interact with most people (keeping in mind that your social circle makes up a miniscule fraction of humanity)? While some people genuinely are stupid, boring jackasses, can we really extrapolate that to everyone but a few published authors, philosophers, and scientists? While you might have some criteria for what constitutes greatness, why should we allow for your subjectivity to determine human worth?

[ChromodynamicGirl]

"The point is namely that greatness doesn't just come from some person emanating awesome. Great people come about because of a billion different variables, most of which are not under any of their own control in the least. They do make a contribution, but generally a relatively small one."
They make a huge contribution to my personal entertainment, and that's what I'm all about.

[Stark]

Is there any content here beyond some kid thinking they've cracked the code and understand how stupid most people are (and how smart they are by extention) coupled with hilariously out-of-date hipster philosophy?

The very idea of needing to be superior to others (in a real way, or in a made-up philosophical way like this) is kinda of counter to any claim to such. But I guess there's a detailed 7-billion-respondent survey that allows these sweeping generalisations, and not just 'I look out the window of my dad's McMansion and despair'.

[Andrew J.]

Any individual person is worthless. You, me, the "great men" you like so much, are all ants. A human truly cut off from society would be killed and eaten by wild animals in under a week.

No great man would have the opportunity to do jack without the great masses of schlubs making up the civilization around him. Have some sympathy for those poor bastards. Just because we're better than them doesn't mean we can be ungrateful for all the help they provide us.

[Akhlut]

"The point is namely that greatness doesn't just come from some person emanating awesome. Great people come about because of a billion different variables, most of which are not under any of their own control in the least. They do make a contribution, but generally a relatively small one."
They make a huge contribution to my personal entertainment, and that's what I'm all about.

Wow. In spite of whatever grasp you have over physics, it seems that the rest of your intellect is at the level of my two year old son's. Possibly below that, as he exhibits empathy toward people and things that aren't providing him with entertainment, comfort, or the like.

[Edi]

Stark, Andrew J., fuck off out of this thread. When the order from two different mods has been "Stay the fuck out!" you will stay the fuck out unless given permission.

I'm heading off to bed, but both of you morons will get warnings on your record first fucking thing tomorrow morning.

If you have a problem with that, take it up with either Lagmonster or Dalton.

[fgalkin]

I would like to comment (which is explicitly permitted, yay!) that the OP has managed to contradict itself as "worth" is an explicitly human concept, and thus, by the OP's definition, meaningless and "worthless".

I am also amused that the poster does not, apparently, consider oneself to be a member of the human race.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin