Serafina wrote:Look, its very simple.
Some behavior can be threatening. Shouting is an example - shouting at someone can be threatening and intimidating.
Whether behavior is threatening depends on a variety of factors - circumstances, who you are, and who the other person is.
Someone who is obviously physically strong is more intimidating than someone who isn't, and the larger the difference between two people is the stronger the effect.
The same applies to men.
The fact that you're a man means that i can be afraid that you might rape me - just like a very strong person might easily beat me up.
Various behaviors and circumstances can enhance that - sexist jokes, getting too close, blatantly checking me out and so on. That doesn't mean that every man is a rapist - just like being physically strong doesn't mean that a person is violent.
Serafina.
Purple wrote:
The viewpoint is not what she would be afraid off but why she would be afraid of it. That is to say that as a male and at the same time a generally almost decent person (if I do say so my self) I honestly do not think that a sufficient part of the male population consists out of evil elevator rapists to warrant such fears. Yes, these things happen. And yes, they are horrible. But to genuinely fear someones advance, especially what if I understand correctly was an invitation for a coffee that would take place outside based on nothing but notion that you are alone with him in the elevator and no one can see it if he goes insanely evil at you all of a sudden is worrying. It means that this person genuinely believes most men are potential insane elevator rapists.
Purple asks why Watson should be afraid, because he doesn't think that a sufficient part of the male population are rapists.
Jogurt wrote:If men find it uncomfortable, that's good. The prevalence of sexual assault and what constitutes it are things that many men don't know about or are in active denial of. Learning that many women are uneasy with your presence because they understand you could be a threat to without even realising it probably is going to be uncomfortable, but imagine how it feels to those of us who have to live with that uneasiness.
If you really are a "decent person", you'll react to learning about this uncomfortable fact by trying to understand how those affected feel and what you can do to make it better. If, however, you're one of those "I'm not actively malicious, so I'm good and deserve things" people, then you'll react to this uncomfortable truth by denying that it is truth or that it should be an issue at all, since you're putting your discomfort over being seen as a threat over the feelings of those whom your presence threatens.
Jogurt replies that men should find it uncomfortable, because too many males are ignorant of the prevalence of sexual assault.
Throwing that back into their face is uncomfortable and will prod action. Furthermore, if you're a decent person, you will accept that and work to reduce that, both via your actions as well as in changing society.
I then barge in to point out that Jogurt point? While good and all, and necessary and etc, it reinforces a gender stereotype. That men are rapists. And that we can do everything she wants, WITHOUT reinforcing that stereotype.
Initial response? Its rape! Stop trying to protect your fragile ego that this thing happens.
I reply:
I honestly feel a much more constructive approach isn't to induce guilt in decent people that yes, we should be treated like rapists because there is so much rape going on.
Everyone else responds by saying, "You see, women can be fearful of men actions and must take actions to protect themselves".
Again, you can protect yourself, WITHOUT reinforcing that stereotype.
The last part of the thread? Its now Jotrun and Eleas trying to create a strawman, that I'm the one claiming women should work to not get rape, instead of rapists shouldn't rape.
Why? Because when I REBUT their specific point, Jotrun(women should have their own defensive mechanism) or Eleas(Except you're not being stereotyped as a rapist. You're being stereotyped as an unknown potentially threatening person in certain specific situations. That doesn't mean I would treat them badly, but it does mean I would be careful in how to deal with them, in order to minimize a potentially harmful situation.
), geez, just WHAT the fuck did they mean? I mean, just how WOULD women deal with men in a potentially harmful situation? Don't go out on dates with them? Make sure people know who and where you are?
Wait a minute, am I echoing advice from a feminist organization for how women could minimize rape in a potentially harmful situation?
I am!
http://www.aware.org.sg/rape/reducing-risks/
But of course, I'm being a Male chauvinist Pig because I state that women can minimize the potential to get raped without stereotyping men. My prior internet history on SB and SDN doesn't count.
But obviously, its me, the big bad feminist fault. Oh right, I'm sorry, I forgot, my advocacy of feminism is for gender equality. I endorse the concept of marital rape, I endorse Slutwalk, I endorse increased male paternity leave............ because it makes the gender more equal.
My concept of gender equality does mean I support rewriting alimony laws, particularly in the Singapore Women Charter which treats women as caregivers and men as economic breadwinners, which disadvantage the minority where men win custody of the children and the women earning power is more but I fail to see how that makes me a MRA.
My personal response in this thread? Jogurt is speaking entirely from her US perspective, where attempts to say "men aren't rapists"= MRA trying to deny women the chance to talk about rape culture.
But that's the US. The culture elsewhere is different. Not better of course. And in this case, again, one can do everything, change rape culture, without embracing the gender stereotype that men are potential rapists.
Let him land on any Lyran world to taste firsthand the wrath of peace loving people thwarted by the myopic greed of a few miserly old farts- Katrina Steiner
