"Rape Culture": The discussion

[Eleas]

Yes, but it´s harmless to it´s literal target. Because the literal target isn´t the real target. That´s why I said that it´s a good tool to fight things like rape culture.

Yeah, fair point. I will say, however, that jokes made for shock value and jokes made in imitation of people one loathes are at the opposite ends of the spectrum of humor.

[salm]

To rephrase my comment, the important bit with any ideology is how people internalize it. And a reliable sign of internalization is when a person commonly resorts to certain tropes or ideas without even thinking about it.

Thus, off the cuff comments or jokes reveal a lot about a person's actual opinions. And, getting back on topic, men usually resorting to jokes that imply women are mere cock accessories, and society at large excusing such behaviour without thinking about it, in my opinion reveals a very troubling mindset.

I think we agree on most things. A mindset like the one you discribe is troubling, no doubt, nothing to argue about.
What I keep saying though, is that it´s very hard or even impossible to judge if somebody has such a mindset based on a conversation taken out of the context of the situation.

<edit>To add another example: If somebody got only access to selected comments in the testing forum and knew nothing about sd.net they might be led to believe that the word "oppression" is used entirely seriously.</edit>

[Oskuro]

Certainly context is everything. My point about repeated jokes does mean that there is a context (in which the person keeps making the same joke over and over).

In this particular case? Obviously hard to tell, but you'll agree that the "they are just joking/ it's men talk" reaction/defense keeps popping up whenever these exact type of comments are uttered.

Then again, I'm just popping my head through the window to provide my two cents on the discussion (If only because I've been involved in similar discussions in real life lately)

[Ziggy Stardust]

Rape Joke by Patricia Lockwood

For anyone who thinks that all jokes about rape should be off-limits, because they somehow magically trivialize the issue and reinforce rape culture: (It is quite long)

The rape joke is that you were 19 years old.

The rape joke is that he was your boyfriend.

The rape joke it wore a goatee. A goatee.

Imagine the rape joke looking in the mirror, perfectly reflecting back itself, and grooming itself to look more like a rape joke. “Ahhhh,” it thinks. “Yes. A goatee.”

No offense.

The rape joke is that he was seven years older. The rape joke is that you had known him for years, since you were too young to be interesting to him. You liked that use of the word interesting, as if you were a piece of knowledge that someone could be desperate to acquire, to assimilate, and to spit back out in different form through his goateed mouth.

Then suddenly you were older, but not very old at all.

The rape joke is that you had been drinking wine coolers. Wine coolers! Who drinks wine coolers? People who get raped, according to the rape joke.

The rape joke is he was a bouncer, and kept people out for a living.

Not you!

The rape joke is that he carried a knife, and would show it to you, and would turn it over and over in his hands as if it were a book.

He wasn’t threatening you, you understood. He just really liked his knife.

The rape joke is he once almost murdered a dude by throwing him through a plate-glass window. The next day he told you and he was trembling, which you took as evidence of his sensitivity.

How can a piece of knowledge be stupid? But of course you were so stupid.

The rape joke is that sometimes he would tell you you were going on a date and then take you over to his best friend Peewee’s house and make you watch wrestling while they all got high.

The rape joke is that his best friend was named Peewee.

OK, the rape joke is that he worshiped The Rock.

Like the dude was completely in love with The Rock. He thought it was so great what he could do with his eyebrow.

The rape joke is he called wrestling “a soap opera for men.” Men love drama too, he assured you.

The rape joke is that his bookshelf was just a row of paperbacks about serial killers. You mistook this for an interest in history, and laboring under this misapprehension you once gave him a copy of Günter Grass’s My Century, which he never even tried to read.

It gets funnier.

The rape joke is that he kept a diary. I wonder if he wrote about the rape in it.

The rape joke is that you read it once, and he talked about another girl. He called her Miss Geography, and said “he didn’t have those urges when he looked at her anymore,” not since he met you. Close call, Miss Geography!

The rape joke is that he was your father’s high-school student—your father taught World Religion. You helped him clean out his classroom at the end of the year, and he let you take home the most beat-up textbooks.

The rape joke is that he knew you when you were 12 years old. He once helped your family move two states over, and you drove from Cincinnati to St. Louis with him, all by yourselves, and he was kind to you, and you talked the whole way. He had chaw in his mouth the entire time, and you told him he was disgusting and he laughed, and spat the juice through his goatee into a Mountain Dew bottle.

The rape joke is that come on, you should have seen it coming. This rape joke is practically writing itself.

The rape joke is that you were facedown. The rape joke is you were wearing a pretty green necklace that your sister had made for you. Later you cut that necklace up. The mattress felt a specific way, and your mouth felt a specific way open against it, as if you were speaking, but you know you were not. As if your mouth were open ten years into the future, reciting a poem called Rape Joke.

The rape joke is that time is different, becomes more horrible and more habitable, and accommodates your need to go deeper into it.

Just like the body, which more than a concrete form is a capacity.

You know the body of time is elastic, can take almost anything you give it, and heals quickly.

The rape joke is that of course there was blood, which in human beings is so close to the surface.

The rape joke is you went home like nothing happened, and laughed about it the next day and the day after that, and when you told people you laughed, and that was the rape joke.

It was a year before you told your parents, because he was like a son to them. The rape joke is that when you told your father, he made the sign of the cross over you and said, “I absolve you of your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” which even in its total wrongheadedness, was so completely sweet.

The rape joke is that you were crazy for the next five years, and had to move cities, and had to move states, and whole days went down into the sinkhole of thinking about why it happened. Like you went to look at your backyard and suddenly it wasn’t there, and you were looking down into the center of the earth, which played the same red event perpetually.

The rape joke is that after a while you weren’t crazy anymore, but close call, Miss Geography.

The rape joke is that for the next five years all you did was write, and never about yourself, about anything else, about apples on the tree, about islands, dead poets and the worms that aerated them, and there was no warm body in what you wrote, it was elsewhere.

The rape joke is that this is finally artless. The rape joke is that you do not write artlessly.

The rape joke is if you write a poem called Rape Joke, you’re asking for it to become the only thing people remember about you.

The rape joke is that you asked why he did it. The rape joke is he said he didn’t know, like what else would a rape joke say? The rape joke said YOU were the one who was drunk, and the rape joke said you remembered it wrong, which made you laugh out loud for one long split-open second. The wine coolers weren’t Bartles & Jaymes, but it would be funnier for the rape joke if they were. It was some pussy flavor, like Passionate Mango or Destroyed Strawberry, which you drank down without question and trustingly in the heart of Cincinnati Ohio.

Can rape jokes be funny at all, is the question.

Can any part of the rape joke be funny. The part where it ends—haha, just kidding! Though you did dream of killing the rape joke for years, spilling all of its blood out, and telling it that way.

The rape joke cries out for the right to be told.

The rape joke is that this is just how it happened.

The rape joke is that the next day he gave you Pet Sounds. No really. Pet Sounds. He said he was sorry and then he gave you Pet Sounds. Come on, that’s a little bit funny.

Admit it.

This is a joke about rape. It is. It is quite funny at times. But it does not trivialize rape in any way. In fact, it is subversive; it turns the "rape joke" back at cultural attitudes towards rape. It is sad, poignant, and funny.

[Dr. Trainwreck]

Well yes, if you tell a really philosophical and multilayered joke after reflecting on it, it is art. It is poetry and literature and all the sciences. Even if it is a rape joke.

I think most jokes that draw people's ire are not.

[Oskuro]

I don't really know how to turn a rape joke around so it is funny (and, admittedly, some jokes are funny precisely because they are horrifying, dark humour and all), but, an example of how to turn around a joke type that is usually offensive is the following gay joke:

How do you know if your roomate is gay? Spoiler

Because his cock tastes like shit.

Joke is not mine (can't find source right now, sorry).

[Scrib]

Like I said before: you can make rape jokes work. See:The Implication, This is the End and Emma Watson and Louis CK.. All of these are not about trivializing, they're about finding the black humor in the fucked up world and people's fucked up attitudes and they never, ever let you forget that it's fucked up. (CK is especially hamfisted about this, see: Black people and time machines) Joking about punishing someone with the Penis of Justice? Hell naw.

A lot of comics use the "if it's funny" defense but one needs to look at why it's funny. You'll never please everyone (there are people that want a complete ban) but you'll make a point with some.

I think we agree on most things. A mindset like the one you discribe is troubling, no doubt, nothing to argue about.
What I keep saying though, is that it´s very hard or even impossible to judge if somebody has such a mindset based on a conversation taken out of the context of the situation.

This is why things like "intent isn't magic" and judging comments in their social context is so convenient.

[Oskuro]

One thing about "intent" though is that, no matter what your intent is, what you say can hurt others. Giving a fuck about not hurting others isn't that bad a thing, I think.


And yes, some people take it to extremes, I'm just pointing out that intent or even context won't help if you make a rape joke to an actual rape victim, and getting pissy because said person doesn't want to understand your point of view won't change that your comment hurt the person.

(Yes, personal experience, not with rape jokes/victims, per se, thankfully)

[salm]

One thing about "intent" though is that, no matter what your intent is, what you say can hurt others. Giving a fuck about not hurting others isn't that bad a thing, I think.


And yes, some people take it to extremes, I'm just pointing out that intent or even context won't help if you make a rape joke to an actual rape victim, and getting pissy because said person doesn't want to understand your point of view won't change that your comment hurt the person.

(Yes, personal experience, not with rape jokes/victims, per se, thankfully)

Making a rape joke to rape victims is context. In fact it doesn´t get any contextier than that.

[PKRudeBoy]

One thing about "intent" though is that, no matter what your intent is, what you say can hurt others. Giving a fuck about not hurting others isn't that bad a thing, I think.


And yes, some people take it to extremes, I'm just pointing out that intent or even context won't help if you make a rape joke to an actual rape victim, and getting pissy because said person doesn't want to understand your point of view won't change that your comment hurt the person.

(Yes, personal experience, not with rape jokes/victims, per se, thankfully)

Making a rape joke to rape victims is context. In fact it doesn´t get any contextier than that.

But it's a context that you generally have no way of knowing about beforehand. With other potentially offensive jokes it's often easier to tell if someone might get offended. Still, if you need to think whether or not a joke might be offensive, and you actually care if someone might be offended, it's probably best not to say it.

[salm]

One thing about "intent" though is that, no matter what your intent is, what you say can hurt others. Giving a fuck about not hurting others isn't that bad a thing, I think.


And yes, some people take it to extremes, I'm just pointing out that intent or even context won't help if you make a rape joke to an actual rape victim, and getting pissy because said person doesn't want to understand your point of view won't change that your comment hurt the person.

(Yes, personal experience, not with rape jokes/victims, per se, thankfully)

Making a rape joke to rape victims is context. In fact it doesn´t get any contextier than that.

But it's a context that you generally have no way of knowing about beforehand.

Why not?

[Thanas]

^Because one generally does not know who in the circle of acquintances/friends is a survivor of assault or not. I think Rape jokes are distasteful and don't use them for that very reason.

[salm]

If the friend/aquaintance starts making rape jokes it´s sufficiently safe to say that they´re not offended by them.

[Thanas]

That particular one, no.

[Ralin]

^Because one generally does not know who in the circle of acquintances/friends is a survivor of assault or not. I think Rape jokes are distasteful and don't use them for that very reason.

I think that makes sense and I generally hold back on joking about rape unless I know someone's sense of humor well enough to be reasonably sure how they'll react.

I really have doubts about how much good declaring it a subject taboo for humor does though. It's like the whole trigger warning thing online; even if I personally do it and encourage others to most people aren't going to get with the program. The last thing I want to do is shove something that reminds someone of something traumatic in their face, but does it really do them any favors to get them used to expecting that? There's not being an asshole and there's setting people up for that much more of a shock later on.

[Thanas]

I personally don't think it is something to be joked about as it is to me the most heinous thing save torture and murder. I don't make jokes about those either. But that is just my personal preference, I don't want to force it on others.

[Ralin]

Yeah, and I respect that. I have friends who have been raped and I know it really messed up some of them. People react in different ways, you know?

I also think there's a whole world of difference between some frat bro joking about slipping girls roofies and me telling a friend who's both a feminist and a big George R R Martin fan, "Wow. I just realized. The HBO people managed to adapt all of book two. And no one got raped."

[amigocabal]

In my view, rape culture is a subset of a broader, evil culture. Evil culture does not outright reject centuries of legal, moral, and ethical traditions. Instead, evil culture works to undermine these traditions by inventing purpoted justifications for traditionally condemned acts.

In the context of rape, these purpoted justifications include things like "she really did not mean no", "she was asking for it", "it is not as if she no longer has a vagina", et al.

Fighting rape culture, and evil culture of which it is a subset, must be done by reinforcing and reaffirming our legal, moral, and ethical traditions.

[Ralin]

You do realize that rape was literally considered a property offense not so long ago, right?

[Broomstick]

It still is in a significant portion of the world.

[amigocabal]

You do realize that rape was literally considered a property offense not so long ago, right?

No, but if true, it was still seen as evil, as the phrase "offense" implies.

[Ralin]

I think you fail to grasp that it wasn't considered immoral, it was considered disrespectful to the man she belonged to.

There's a reason why the Bible says that rapists should be forced to marry their victims. Making up for hurting the victim's chances of finding a husband was much more important than her silly woman feelings. You're talking about the moral equivalent of defaulting on your student loans.

[Broomstick]

Keep in mind, too, that where rape is considered property damage any penalties go to the woman's owner not to the woman herself. That is, any fines or compensation go to the father, husband, or brother of the raped woman, not to the woman herself.

[Guardsman Bass]

It also meant that women would be targeted specifically for rape in armed conflicts because it was seen as a way to damage the "property" of the enemy men.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I also think there's a whole world of difference between some frat bro joking about slipping girls roofies and me telling a friend who's both a feminist and a big George R R Martin fan, "Wow. I just realized. The HBO people managed to adapt all of book two. And no one got raped."

Indeed. Broadly speaking, there are two types of rape jokes (well, three). Those that come at the expense of the victim (the frat bro) and those that do not (the George RR example, using rape allegorically; or the rape joke I posted earlier in the thread, which comes at the expense of the rapist/societal norms, etc.). The third type of rape "joke" is the Tosh style "just say something bad for no reason other than to shock people."

I think it is important to distinguish between them, rather than saying carte blanche that all rape jokes are "bad" are "off-limits."