Why are some people so afraid of climate change?

[madd0ct0r]

I am simply quite surprised that anyone would even want to calculate these things. And whilst the numbers check out the bottom line is that I simply remain unconvinced that it's worth the up front price. Sure it pays off over time. But what worth is "over time" to me today when I am standing in the store with my wallet? For all I know I might not be alive by the time that thing burns out. Life is like that.

Dude, did you even read the post that worked through the math? It will pay off after about 39 days of use. We're not talking 15 years of slow savings, here. Are you really going to sit there and say with a straight face that 39 days is so far in the future as to be too abstract to be worth planning over? Or are you really that fucking stupid? How can you even manage to function as an adult if you are too stubborn to think a head a mere month? Do you not have a savings account or IRA because, hey, you might die before they mature?

er.not what I said. most people don't have the lightbulb on 24 hours a day. A particular bulb may only be on for a few hours a day. Payback time is thus easily a year. As a bonus, at that level of usage, you wouldn't have to buy a new bulb for 22 years.
on the other hand, if you move house regularly, the benefits are less.

[Purple]

er.not what I said. most people don't have the lightbulb on 24 hours a day. A particular bulb may only be on for a few hours a day. Payback time is thus easily a year. As a bonus, at that level of usage, you wouldn't have to buy a new bulb for 22 years.
on the other hand, if you move house regularly, the benefits are less.

You say "a year" as if it was a short span of time instead of basically eternity.

[Borgholio]

I am simply quite surprised that anyone would even want to calculate these things. And whilst the numbers check out the bottom line is that I simply remain unconvinced that it's worth the up front price. Sure it pays off over time. But what worth is "over time" to me today when I am standing in the store with my wallet? For all I know I might not be alive by the time that thing burns out. Life is like that.

More things in life are calculated like this than you think. What kind of car do you buy? Do you buy a huge gas guzzler from a friend for a few thousand or do you buy a smaller compact car from a dealership for a few thousand more? Do you commute a long distance? If so, better to spend more on the smaller car because fuel savings will make up for the extra cost of the vehicle.

What kind of clothing do you buy? Do you buy a high-end brand of jeans that is very well made but costs a hundred dollars a pair, or do you buy a 45 dollar pair that will last almost as long just without the designer label?

You mentioned food. People do that all the time. Do you buy a small can of chili for a dollar or a can three times the size for two dollars? Obviously the bigger can is the better deal so you go with that if you know you will eat it.

You really can't go through life and expect to maintain any kind of a reasonable budget if you are not constantly comparing cost to value.

[Purple]

More things in life are calculated like this than you think. What kind of car do you buy? Do you buy a huge gas guzzler from a friend for a few thousand or do you buy a smaller compact car from a dealership for a few thousand more? Do you commute a long distance? If so, better to spend more on the smaller car because fuel savings will make up for the extra cost of the vehicle.

What kind of clothing do you buy? Do you buy a high-end brand of jeans that is very well made but costs a hundred dollars a pair, or do you buy a 45 dollar pair that will last almost as long just without the designer label?

You mentioned food. People do that all the time. Do you buy a small can of chili for a dollar or a can three times the size for two dollars? Obviously the bigger can is the better deal so you go with that if you know you will eat it.

You really can't go through life and expect to maintain any kind of a reasonable budget if you are not constantly comparing cost to value.

Well the thing is I don't actually buy that much. I literally just do not spend a lot of money anyway so the kind of calculation just did not occur to me as it would be trying to pinch from what is already pinched to death by me only buying the essentials. You could for example fit my entire wardrobe, shoes included into one largish suitcase simply because I do not feel I need more than that.

[Terralthra]

Purple, I'm confused. When you say you buy the cheapest thing in the store, Purple...when you buy (let's say) milk, do you just buy a half-litre of milk because it's the cheapest? Or do you estimate how much you'll need in the time the milk will stay unspoilt and buy so as to minimize your per-unit-volume cost (e.g., buy a litre jug, two-litre, whatever suits your consumption level)?

Food is different. Food is one of the few things where I actually care to spend money on quality. So when it comes to food I break my usual rules and buy the kind of milk I like best. Costs be damned. Even if that means I have to go without toilet paper. (Figuratively speaking of course. I don't have the desire or budget to buy stupid expensive stuff for eating.)

I think you missed my actual question entirely. Please re-read and try again?

Do you buy a package of four rolls of toilet paper, because 4 rolls is the cheapest sticker price, or do you buy the larger package because the per-roll cost is lower? This is an important question.

I just buy this one brand I have always been buying since like years ago. I think I started buying it ages ago because it was cheap. But basically by now it's just inertia. I don't think I am the only one in the world that just buys the same brand of everything that they have been buying since forever.

I think you missed my actual question entirely. Please re-read and try again?

Why should I waste time standing and calculating things in a grocery store? It's not like a few euros here or there is going to ruin me. Especially given my spending habits. I don't go out regularly, don't buy many luxuries, don't drive, don't buy expensive items, don't partake in expensive hobbies... Food and utilities are my only real major expenditures. I mean sure, I might waste some money on a long term worse deal here and there. But you know what. I think it's better to let that go to waste than burden my self with extra work just to pinch any penny that I can.

Well, in this particular case, it's also meaningful because less total cost of ownership for you is also less CO2 in the atmosphere. Just like buying larger containers of milk or toilet paper means a slight decrease in packaging waste.

Again, I think you didn't understand my real question. I wasn't asking about cheap vs. expensive brands, I was asking about the size of the container you buy. Please re-read and try again?

[Purple]

Again, I think you didn't understand my real question. I wasn't asking about cheap vs. expensive brands, I was asking about the size of the container you buy. Please re-read and try again?

I see. I guess I did. I'll try again.

Purple, I'm confused. When you say you buy the cheapest thing in the store, Purple...when you buy (let's say) milk, do you just buy a half-litre of milk because it's the cheapest? Or do you estimate how much you'll need in the time the milk will stay unspoilt and buy so as to minimize your per-unit-volume cost (e.g., buy a litre jug, two-litre, whatever suits your consumption level)? Do you buy a package of four rolls of toilet paper, because 4 rolls is the cheapest sticker price, or do you buy the larger package because the per-roll cost is lower? This is an important question.

This is the relevant bit right? In that case.

When you say you buy the cheapest thing in the store, Purple...when you buy (let's say) milk, do you just buy a half-litre of milk because it's the cheapest? Or do you estimate how much you'll need in the time the milk will stay unspoilt and buy so as to minimize your per-unit-volume cost (e.g., buy a litre jug, two-litre, whatever suits your consumption level)?

I generally would buy the larger jug. But only because I find it easier to buy a larger jug today than to have to go to the store multiple times every time a jug runs out. Cost/unit really has nothing to do with it.

Do you buy a package of four rolls of toilet paper, because 4 rolls is the cheapest sticker price, or do you buy the larger package because the per-roll cost is lower?

4 roll packages because anything larger is a chore to carry around and stuffing individual rolls into bags with other groceries is equally a chore. They come pre packaged in a nifty way that can be easily carried. In fact, come to think of it the packaging that can be easily carried probably is the reason I started buying that brand in the first place.

[Terralthra]

I'd think, given what you've just said about your own purchasing habits, that it would be incredibly easy for you to understand why governments and electorates look at the up-front price tag of nuclear power plants and almost universally choose something else. It's the exact same economic decision you've just said you make, repeatedly.

[Purple]

I'd think, given what you've just said about your own purchasing habits, that it would be incredibly easy for you to understand why governments and electorates look at the up-front price tag of nuclear power plants and almost universally choose something else. It's the exact same economic decision you've just said you make, repeatedly.

On the contrary. I believe that it is the government who should be making hard but smart choices so that I don't have to in my personal life.

[Broomstick]

You say "a year" as if it was a short span of time instead of basically eternity.

Just how young are you?

[Terralthra]

I'd think, given what you've just said about your own purchasing habits, that it would be incredibly easy for you to understand why governments and electorates look at the up-front price tag of nuclear power plants and almost universally choose something else. It's the exact same economic decision you've just said you make, repeatedly.

On the contrary. I believe that it is the government who should be making hard but smart choices so that I don't have to in my personal life.

In that case, you've got your wish, since many countries are legislating the phase-out of incandescent bulbs in favor of more energy-efficient ones like the ones you've been avoiding buying in your attempt to avoid any sort of arithmetic.

[Purple]

You say "a year" as if it was a short span of time instead of basically eternity.

Just how young are you?

A year is an instant when it comes to living through it, but eternity when it comes to spending. I find it a good rule to live by.

In that case, you've got your wish, since many countries are legislating the phase-out of incandescent bulbs in favor of more energy-efficient ones like the ones you've been avoiding buying in your attempt to avoid any sort of arithmetic.

Again, you are saying the contrary. I got the opposite of what I wish. I wish for the government to make the "hard but smart" choices. Not the "useless thing that appeases the masses and shifts the burden onto the average consumer" choice.

[Simon_Jester]

In that case, you've got your wish, since many countries are legislating the phase-out of incandescent bulbs in favor of more energy-efficient ones like the ones you've been avoiding buying in your attempt to avoid any sort of arithmetic.

Again, you are saying the contrary. I got the opposite of what I wish. I wish for the government to make the "hard but smart" choices. Not the "useless thing that appeases the masses and shifts the burden onto the average consumer" choice.

By your own argument, you're averse to making hard choices and ignorant of the factors that go into making them.

"Hard but smart choice" does not mean "do what Purple thinks best." It means "do whatever is optimal in a given situation." Since, as discussed earlier, you are too ignorant and too unwilling to do math or engage in other hard thinking, the odds are pretty good that a government making "hard but smart" choices will do a lot of things you disapprove of.

YOU think mandating energy-efficient bulbs is bad, but that's because your thinking is shallow and rooted in ignorance. You are exactly the sort of person that by your own argument governments should ignore when making decisions.

[Borgholio]

Again, you are saying the contrary. I got the opposite of what I wish. I wish for the government to make the "hard but smart" choices. Not the "useless thing that appeases the masses and shifts the burden onto the average consumer" choice.

How is conserving energy, saving the environment, and keeping less shit out of our landfills useless? How is saving THOUSANDS of dollars over a 5-year period a burden? Please, tell me. I always thought that saving money was LESS of a burden. But we ARE kind of backwards here in the US so I may be wrong...

[Terralthra]

By your own argument, you're averse to making hard choices and ignorant of the factors that go into making them.

"Hard but smart choice" does not mean "do what Purple thinks best." It means "do whatever is optimal in a given situation." Since, as discussed earlier, you are too ignorant and too unwilling to do math or engage in other hard thinking, the odds are pretty good that a government making "hard but smart" choices will do a lot of things you disapprove of.

YOU think mandating energy-efficient bulbs is bad, but that's because your thinking is shallow and rooted in ignorance. You are exactly the sort of person that by your own argument governments should ignore when making decisions.

This is pretty much exactly the line of reasoning I was traveling down, elucidated quite well. Thank you, Simon.