Can a Christian be a creationist and NOT a fundie?

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-04-13 02:22am

If he didn't think the Bible was literal, then where did he get the idea that creationism is right from?

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-04-13 02:40am

neoolong wrote:If he didn't think the Bible was literal, then where did he get the idea that creationism is right from?

He didn't believe that evolution was possible (his father ownes a charter school, and of course he goes there. Tends to tell you about the quality of science education in some of those places, doesn't it?) Hence, he concluded that the only possible explanation for the multitude of species encountered was that they were created by God, and then adapted to their surroundings (he did believe in microevolution).

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-04-13 02:44am

Gah. Sounds like an appeal to ignorance to me.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-04-13 02:45am

fgalkin wrote:Well, I've met one of them. When I was at this summer program at Yale, my roommate (from North Carolina) was a devout Roman Catholic, yet he did not believe in biblical inerrancy. Yet, he was a creationist who did not believe in "macroevolution", i.e. that species could change into other species (although he did believe in "microevolution").

However, he did not insist on the literal interpretation of the Bible (IIRC, it is not a part of Catholic doctrine).

That's just their escape route for making shit up and ignoring things they don't like. When push comes to shove, we're still talking about a belief based on the assumption that the Bible can be used as a piece of evidence.

Also note that other than being a creationst, he was quite intelligent (otherwise he wouldn't have gotten into the program in the first place). Hell, when we were doing debates, I managed him to support my topic (legalization of marijuana).

In my experience, people like that don't realize how flimsy their position is until you push them. At that point, they generally fall back on the assumption that while the Bible is not true in every single detail, it is still "true enough" that it can be used as evidence for a scientific theory. That's close enough to a fundie as far as I'm concerned.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-04-13 02:50am

AdmiralKanos wrote:
fgalkin wrote:Well, I've met one of them. When I was at this summer program at Yale, my roommate (from North Carolina) was a devout Roman Catholic, yet he did not believe in biblical inerrancy. Yet, he was a creationist who did not believe in "macroevolution", i.e. that species could change into other species (although he did believe in "microevolution").

However, he did not insist on the literal interpretation of the Bible (IIRC, it is not a part of Catholic doctrine).
That's just their escape route for making shit up and ignoring things they don't like. When push comes to shove, we're still talking about a belief based on the assumption that the Bible can be used as a piece of evidence.
Also note that other than being a creationst, he was quite intelligent (otherwise he wouldn't have gotten into the program in the first place). Hell, when we were doing debates, I managed him to support my topic (legalization of marijuana).
In my experience, people like that don't realize how flimsy their position is until you push them. At that point, they generally fall back on the assumption that while the Bible is not true in every single detail, it is still "true enough" that it can be used as evidence for a scientific theory. That's close enough to a fundie as far as I'm concerned.

Well, the point is that he wasn't arguing for biblical creation. He was just saying that we were created by god. You can use almost any holy book, from the Bible and the Koran to the Greek myths and the Eddas to prove that.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-04-13 04:21am

fgalkin wrote: Well, the point is that he wasn't arguing for biblical creation. He was just saying that we were created by god. You can use almost any holy book, from the Bible and the Koran to the Greek myths and the Eddas to prove that.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

True, but only the Book of Genesis has the ex nihilo creation story necessary for the Creationists' arguments. The Arkansas Trial in 1981 fairly well showed that Creationism is a particular form of religion, not a science at all. I'm working on a paper dealing with this, which should end up online eventually...once I finish writing it later today or tomorrow.

SWPIGWANG · Post by **SWPIGWANG** » 2003-04-13 05:09am

You don't even need the bible to exist or be necessarily religious exist to be to have creationist-like beliefs.

<---- points to creationist mythology of many many cultures.

And before Darwin, it is just as valid as any belief because the contradicting facts aren't collected and added up at the time.

If one defines all non-scientific knowledge as religion, sure
If one define creationism as following the bible literally about genesis, sure

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-04-13 05:31am

Superman wrote:What do you people think? When I talk to Christians, I usually ask them what they think about creationism to find out if they're fundies.

If they believe in this so called creation, that sort of makes them Biblical literalists, doesn't it?

It does, but that's not the only factor that is included in fundamentalism. Y ou have to understand that fundamentalists will attack ANY discrepancy in the Bible.. ie, homosexuality, religions that AREN'T that denomination, etc., etc.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-13 06:08am

Hmmm... Yes true. For me, I have always just thought that Christians that believe in a six day creation, and discount evolution, are fundies.

Post by **haas mark** » 2003-04-13 06:18am

Superman wrote:Hmmm... Yes true. For me, I have always just thought that Christians that believe in a six day creation, and discount evolution, are fundies.

Learn something new every day..

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-13 06:23am

Since I was raised in fundie household, it is hard for me to not lump them into one category of nuttiness.

It is strange: since I know their personality types so well, I can usually pick them out before they tell me that they are Christians. It's almost as if they have some sort of underlying mental disorder that can be diagnosed.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-13 10:56am

SWPIGWANG wrote:You don't even need the bible to exist or be necessarily religious exist to be to have creationist-like beliefs.

<---- points to creationist mythology of many many cultures.

Most of which have long since gone away in favour of evolution. Judeo-Christianity-Islam is the only group still fighting evolution in any significant way.

And before Darwin, it is just as valid as any belief because the contradicting facts aren't collected and added up at the time.

Actually, gradual development was a theme in Chinese science centuries before Darwin, and Da Vinci also identified gradual development and interrelationship. Darwin formalized it.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-04-13 11:11am

Do those who believe in the "cosmological argument" count as creationists? I've heard of several of them that don't believe in the bible, but attribute the universe to some outside force, called in the interests of ease, "god".

Doesn't genesis also say that god just let the animals come out of the ground or something, or just let them you know, appear...doesnt sound like it condemns evolution that much, just it's in the wrong order and people just assume?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-13 11:14am

Rye wrote:Do those who believe in the "cosmological argument" count as creationists? I've heard of several of them that don't believe in the bible, but attribute the universe to some outside force, called in the interests of ease, "god".

Creationism covers both cosmology and biology. That's why they tend to assume evolution does the same thing, even though it doesn't.

Doesn't genesis also say that god just let the animals come out of the ground or something, or just let them you know, appear...doesnt sound like it condemns evolution that much, just it's in the wrong order and people just assume?

Genesis says God took dust from the ground and breathed life into it. For some reason, creationists think this is more scientifically reasonable than evolution theory

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-04-13 12:49pm

Genesis says God took dust from the ground and breathed life into it. For some reason, creationists think this is more scientifically reasonable than evolution theory

[/quote]

That sounds like abiogenesis to me, admittedly written strangely, and with a god in...but if god is the universe...

but what the hell am i doing? trying to put something worthwhile into genesis?!

<goes off to chastise self>

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-04-13 01:43pm

AdmiralKanos wrote: At that point, they generally fall back on the assumption that while the Bible is not true in every single detail, it is still "true enough" that it can be used as evidence for a scientific theory. That's close enough to a fundie as far as I'm concerned.

Or maybe the man in question is just a product of Creationist indoctrination.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-04-13 02:25pm

Bah...creationism's a heresy anyway, and I'm about to write the section of my paper dealing with that

. Considering my outline for the paper is two handwritten pages long, it may take a while to write this condemnation of creationism. Keeping it down to the twelve pages my professors want as a maximum may be a problem.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-04-13 06:22pm

Darth Wong wrote:
fgalkin wrote:But what about people who don't follow any particular religion, yet believe in God and that they were created by him (not necessarily folowing Genesis)?
Those people are just Christians who went vague.

Guess I'm vague then.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-04-14 11:17am

Superman wrote:Since I was raised in fundie household, it is hard for me to not lump them into one category of nuttiness.

It is strange: since I know their personality types so well, I can usually pick them out before they tell me that they are Christians. It's almost as if they have some sort of underlying mental disorder that can be diagnosed.

With some actually, yes you can.. LOL. They're called Seventh-Day Adventists.. look for B12 deficiency and most likely hypothyroidism as well, the price of being a vegan all their lives. But hell, I'm SURE most of you are suffering some form of dementia as well: hypothyroidism, depression, ptsd, sleep deprivation.. etc etc..

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2003-04-15 06:44pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Howedar wrote:A Creationist view need not strictly adhere to the version in the Bible (or Koran, or Torah, or whatever religious text we choose to talk about). Thus, one could be a creationist and not a fundamentalist.
OK, how many creationists are out there who are willing to admit that the Bible (or Koran, or Torah, whatever applies in his/her case) is not true?

Well, maybe someone could believe all the "facts" recounted in the Bible and conclude that God is an asshole so they aren't going to let him boss them around?

Basically an atheist who hasn't gotten around to not believing in God yet.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Can a Christian be a creationist and NOT a fundie?

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Re: Can a Christian be a creationist and NOT a fundie?