What makes for a valid religion?

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Hotfoot
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Post by Hotfoot »

Darth Wong wrote:Unfortunately for them, it's a tangible product. If they sold you NOTHING and pretended to be giving you salvation, they would be able to claim tax exemption.
So the communion wafers and wine don't count as tangible?
They would still be selling a tangible piece of operating system software that is installable on real, physical computers. If they stopped selling you any physical product and instead demanded money so that you could have a superior operating system in the great computer ether of the afterlife, then they would become a religion.
Eh, I'm pretty sure you could find a loophole that would allow them to carry on in such a fashion, as this was essentially what the Scientologists did.
Mind you, I personally think religious tax-exemption is a huge scam and should be disallowed, for similar reasons to the ones you posted. But as long as we DO allow it, we must be fair about it and not claim that one hokey religion is more "valid" than another.
I do know that there is some criteria that is used, however. :?
Either that, or we use Stravo's "funny-looking hat" criterion.
Which would make football an instant religion, which I'm sure would be welcomed by most football fans, as they could then spend Sundays going to religious services all the time. Communion Wine would be Guiness, and Communion Wafers would be Doritos. :mrgreen:
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Post by Hotfoot »

neoolong wrote:"no pecuniary benefit may inure to the benefit of any of its officers, members or employees, nor may it be used as a guise for profit-making operations" Like I mentioned before.

The law is stopping him from doing that.
So then wouldn't most commercial Tarot reading fit under "profit-making" by that definition?
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Post by neoolong »

Hotfoot wrote:
neoolong wrote:"no pecuniary benefit may inure to the benefit of any of its officers, members or employees, nor may it be used as a guise for profit-making operations" Like I mentioned before.

The law is stopping him from doing that.
So then wouldn't most commercial Tarot reading fit under "profit-making" by that definition?
Maybe. Do they try to get tax exemption on religious grounds?
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Post by Hotfoot »

neoolong wrote:Maybe. Do they try to get tax exemption on religious grounds?
Good question, I don't know. However, if they couldn't claim that exemption, then wouldn't it be a simple case against them as being religious practitioners?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Hotfoot wrote:
neoolong wrote:Maybe. Do they try to get tax exemption on religious grounds?
Good question, I don't know. However, if they couldn't claim that exemption, then wouldn't it be a simple case against them as being religious practitioners?
Why? Taxes are paid on profits from fundamentalist Christian books which are sold at the bookstore.
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Post by neoolong »

I don't know, I never saw tarot-reading instriniscally as very religious. It seems to me that it would be like calling a friend for the sports scores or something, just ones in the future. If he charged for it, it would be for profit, and not very religious.
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Post by Hotfoot »

Darth Wong wrote:Why? Taxes are paid on profits from fundamentalist Christian books which are sold at the bookstore.
And taxes are paid on Tarot card decks at the bookstore as well, but that's not really the point. The act of using them to "divine" the future is in question, not so much the tools.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Hotfoot wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Why? Taxes are paid on profits from fundamentalist Christian books which are sold at the bookstore.
And taxes are paid on Tarot card decks at the bookstore as well, but that's not really the point. The act of using them to "divine" the future is in question, not so much the tools.
That's exactly what people do with the Bible. They even sell books like "The Bible Code" which purport to do exactly that.
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Post by Hotfoot »

Darth Wong wrote:That's exactly what people do with the Bible. They even sell books like "The Bible Code" which purport to do exactly that.
Yes, but those books don't claim to be personal or custom-made for any one person.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Hotfoot wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:That's exactly what people do with the Bible. They even sell books like "The Bible Code" which purport to do exactly that.
Yes, but those books don't claim to be personal or custom-made for any one person.
So? How does that distinction make one a valid religion and the other one not?
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Post by Hotfoot »

Darth Wong wrote:So? How does that distinction make one a valid religion and the other one not?
Isaac Asimov wrote on the meaning of the Bible, does that make it a religious work, or that he was doing the work of any religion with his book? How are the Bible Code books similar at all to a Tarot reading, other than having something to do with religion?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Hotfoot wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:So? How does that distinction make one a valid religion and the other one not?
Isaac Asimov wrote on the meaning of the Bible, does that make it a religious work, or that he was doing the work of any religion with his book? How are the Bible Code books similar at all to a Tarot reading, other than having something to do with religion?
OK, you seem to be seizing upon various characteristics of an established religion, treating them as intrinsic to the definition of religion, and then challenging me to show that tarot cards match them one by one, with the presumption that any differences invalidate tarot card reading.

This method, pursued to its end, will lead to the conclusion that tarot card reading is not a valid religion unless it's exactly like Christianity.

Let's put this another way: we accept that there is a such thing as religion. I define religion to simply be any belief system which requires faith in the supernatural (note that this is also the relevant definition in Merrian-Webster's dictionary). Tarot cards require such faith, since there is certainly no objective basis for them. Therefore, they are a religion. The question of how services are rendered and paid for is completely irrelevant to the definition of religion and whether the term applies to any particular organization.

How do you define religion?
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Post by Hotfoot »

Darth Wong wrote:OK, you seem to be seizing upon various characteristics of an established religion, treating them as intrinsic to the definition of religion, and then challenging me to show that tarot cards match them one by one, with the presumption that any differences invalidate tarot card reading.

This method, pursued to its end, will lead to the conclusion that tarot card reading is not a valid religion unless it's exactly like Christianity.
Take in mind, I am talking primarily about commercial tarot card reading, not private tarot card reading. There's a difference between the stuff that street vendors do and the stuff that a friend or fellow coven member would do.
Let's put this another way: we accept that there is a such thing as religion. I define religion to simply be any belief system which requires faith in the supernatural (note that this is also the relevant definition in Merrian-Webster's dictionary). Tarot cards require such faith, since there is certainly no objective basis for them. Therefore, they are a religion. The question of how services are rendered and paid for is completely irrelevant to the definition of religion and whether the term applies to any particular organization.
A key piece to the puzzle would be if the Tarot card readers pay taxes or not, and if they are making a profit which does not directly go towards the funding of their religion and/or religious services.
How do you define religion?
I agree with your definition, really, but I'm talking more about what the government would be willing to label as a religion, and there the line seems to get hazy.

I apologize for any obvious logical holes in my last few posts, I seem to have violated the HFSNPWG principle.
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SG-14: Because in some cases, "Recon" means "Blow up a fucking planet or die trying."
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