can anyone prove evolution to me?

[Enforcer Talen]

a few links would be lovely, particualrly beginnings.

[Exonerate]

You can't exactly "prove" evolution beyond a doubt. Proving it enough to satisfy fundies is almost impossible. You could point out similarities in hemoglobin, DNA, shared derived traits, bacteria becoming drug resistant. Of course, they'll just scream that it's micro-evolution and that since nobody actually saw it, it can't be a valid scientific theory

Try http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html which has a nice list of benefical mutations...

[Enforcer Talen]

well, they involved 2nd law of thermodynamics.

then we got onto talking bout the big bang, and I was doing fine, till they asked what made it explode in the first place. -requests knowledge-

[Exonerate]

You could Google it up, you know.

http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e1 ... -bang.html
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/cosmology.php

[Enforcer Talen]

I figure you people have most of it onhand.

[neoolong]

Mike's Creationism page is pretty good.

So is talkorigins.org.

[Cyborg Stan]

Used to have a small list of URLs someplace on my HD...

1.If they go into the Big Bang while they're supposed to be discussing evolution, they're going too far. It's like having to prove that you've been born just to show that you got your driver's license, only more inane. This espically goes if you're the only one on your side.

That being said.....

I won't go into the details, but the Big Bang model works all the way up to a few minute fractions of a second after the event, to where our current models of gravity don't reach anymore. In order NOT to have a Big Bang would not only have our models not reaching, but to have them outright wrong.

2. The Second Law oF Thermodyanmics - it all depends on what they try to say.

More complex or orderly structures cannot result from simpler ones?

You can get sugar crystals from letting sugar water sit. Oil and Water seperate themselves out after being shaken. A zygote matures into an independantly living being. We regularly construct extremely complex machines out of relatively simple starting materials.

Only intelligence or living systems allows ways around the 2LoTD?

While this is easily disproved simply by looking up what the Second Law of Thermodyamnics actually is and seeing what kind of problems they use on it, I'll also bring up a few other things.....

1. The Laws of Thermodyanmics owe themselves to the rise of steam engines, of which the studies to make a perfect engine took shape after seeing all the wasted energy. So, the formulation of the 2LoTD resulted largely in part from the study of intelligently-designed systems.
2. Any decent physics book covering the subject would mention and assign problems with ideal engines - and they still generate entrophy.
3. The scientists aren't going to leave a huge gap in the laws of thermodyanmics if somehow evolution (or even an animal GROWING) would violate it. If one looks at the history of the Laws, the Zeroth Law of Thermodyanmics (If two objects are at thermal equilibrium with a third object, then they are at equilibrium with each other.) was added after the other two were formulated. If somehow intelligent-designed or living systems somehow got around this, you'd think they'd mention it.
4. Living beings either get their energy from the sun (photosynthesis or eating those that use photosynthesis) or perhaps voitle chemicals from deep-sea vents. They also excrete waste. If one wishes to know how animals grow or how populations change, they only need to look at that.

Other than suggesting sites such as the supreb TalkOrigins.Org website or even Mike's own creationism page, it would help if we knew more specifically of the arguments used, although I admit getting a coherent list might be hard, espically if they like using constantly shifting arguments and such like I've seen alot of creationists use.

[Rye]

Talen, this page addresses mosto f the fundie bullpoo.

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-mustread.html

Long story short:

2nd law of thermodynamics:about heat transfer in metal, worded differently, to apply to everything, then over simplified to disprove evolution. Make them quote the actual law to you.

Speciation Has been observed, they call this "macro evolution".

Every new generation is evolution, no race on earth is more or less evolved than any others (a common tactic they use to make you a white supremacist or something), but some are more specialised than others, this is why us whiteys -generally- do better in colder climes etc, this is why if you take a penguin and put it in the serengeti, it is screwed.

If you want quick answers to the common args, use mikes quickies section.

Mike's quickies section

Remeber, evo is FACT and THEORY.

Process of evolution is fact, and is a part of the overall theory.

[Admiral Valdemar]

well, they involved 2nd law of thermodynamics.

then we got onto talking bout the big bang, and I was doing fine, till they asked what made it explode in the first place. -requests knowledge-

I do love that, the fact that most of them don't know what the laws of thermodynamics are and that they dredge up the Big Bang which has JACK ALL to do with evolution never fails to raise a laugh.

[Kitsune]

This is a copy of the general list of evidence for evolution which I used when discussing on local BBSes.

When first started discussing Evolution and the Big Bang, I had many creationist say that there is no evidence for evolution. This is not the case and because this discussion comes up every so often I decided that I should create a list of various evidence for evolution and as you can see there are quite a few lines of evidence. While Transitional Fossils are very important to show that evolution occurred, there are many other types of evidence that we can use and this list demonstrates these facts.
Since the creation of this list, there have been a few abortive attempts to disprove the information in this article. No one has successfully disproved a single Item of this list. Reference list is new and was added to show that I have support for the items that I am posting.
a) Transitional Fossils: I have a large 60+ page list of general vertebrate transitional fossils, a 50+ page post on specifically hominid fossils, and a 15+ page list on just equids (Horse ancestors) fossils that I can either post or E-mail any of them at your request. They are found in layers, we don't find Dinosaurs in the same layers as Mastodons.
b) Genetic similarities between various creatures: In several books I have read it is stated that us and chimpanzees are over 97% alike with vast areas of gene showing exactly the same information and humans and chimps are actually closer that Chimps and Gorillas. As predicted from fossil evidence, Birds closest living relatives genetically are Crocodiles. In fact, the genes of most creatures are strikingly similar to all others; a particular section of DNA identified (in a lower life form) as responsible for a particular trait - does the same (or an analog) for the higher forms. (e.g. - while a specific area gives fruit flies colorless eyes, the same DNA segment in humans carries part of the info for eye color.) [To learn about simple genetics all you need to do is read an encyclopedia under genetics and I do not want to take up multiple pages explaining genetics].
c) Blood Proteins : Blood proteins also support this conclusion that humans and chimpanzees have diverged recently. Both Chimpanzee and gorilla proteins have been found to be 96% alike with human blood proteins. This is done by first injecting a rabbit with human blood and then injecting the rabbit with Gorilla and Chimpanzee blood and seeing how fast the immune system reacts.
d) Signs of previous species in later species (Some always show up/ Some only turn up part of the time): Chickens Teeth, Horses Toes, Rear Legs in Whales, Our Tailbone, Bend in the shell of the King Crab showing that its ancestor lived like the hermit crab inside larger shells.
e) Fetal evidence: Using the human fetus, during a stage, the human fetus has a full length tail, gill slit bridges that later develop into the lower jaws and ear bones. Human and Chimpanzee fetuses are close to identical until a very late time of development. Bird front limbs develop identical to human arms in the start of their fetal development.
e) Universal Energy Module: Every living creature uses exactly the same energy Module, I believe scientist call it ATP
f) Organs in creatures showing signs of having evolved: Example is the eye, you take some of the most primitive animals and they have areas that can only see light and dark. You look further and you get them able to distinguish more and being in a slight cup, you check a more advanced animal and they are in a deep cup and able to distinguish far more, Then the cup becomes covered up, and then the covering becomes a lens in the most advanced animals.
g) Jury Rigged part of Organisms: Organs/Actions in creatures that do not make sense that a creator would have created them that way: Vertebrate Eyes being wired in backwards, Human legs and spine not being properly set up for two legged walking, Human Males urethra goes through the prostate gland having a large danger if the gland gets infected, Panda's thumb, a male rodent that dies due to a hormone imbalance once it mates, a rabbit that eats its own feces to get nutrients it needs, a fly that her young eat her from the inside, wasps that lay their eggs inside living spiders, whale /dolphins breathing air instead of getting oxygen through gills like other marine animals, flat fish having both of their eyes on the same side of the body and them laying on their side, parthenogenetic lizards of the genus Cnenidophorus, only females exist and they have to be stimulated by simulated sex, the African locust nerves for its wings are in the abdomen when the wings are in the thorax
h) Sign that organs developed from other organs: Example is that our lungs have a lot in common with the air sacks that fish use to get their buoyancy
i) Signs of creatures adapting or evolving in modern day: The Hawaiian Wallaby, The Sludge Worm, House Cats have adapted to various climates, usually with very little human help. Insects adapting to various pesticides, RNA chains in laboratories have been cause to adapt to environments that were harmful to themselves before.
j) Not all mutations are harmful: Manx cat for example have no tail yet their ancestors had tails and Manx cats are a viable breeding cat.
k) Physical similarities between species, compare all cats, all dogs, all primates, all bats, all bovines (And I am not talking about Rosanne Barr either <g>) and there are striking similarities. In a more broad example, all insects have 6 legs and composite eyes, all spiders having 8 legs and multiple eyes, all mammals having four limbs, all birds having wings or wing nubs (such as the penguin). In closer examples, All primates (Including us) have 32 teeth. In an even closer example, human brains are closer to Gorillas that to monkeys. Remember, this is what Darwin used for the most part to get his theories.
l) Mitochondria in all organisms that have eukaryotic cells have many features in common with bacteria.
m) Social pattern in human are in some ways very close to those of other mammals, closer even in primates, and very close to those of the Apes. Chimpanzees have a society of male relatives and the females are the ones that leave their original group an fact chimpanzees have been know to plan wars against other chimpanzee groups
n) Amino acids can be found in many different environments Including the vents Under the ocean and comet debris. In various catalyzing experiments, short chain and even moderate length RNA fragments can be created in experiments Simulating early Earth conditions. Sugars can be created in similar ways and there have been various experiments on the creation of cell walls from naturally occurring fatty lipids.
o) Geologic Evidence show that the planet is far older than 6000 years and shows that sedimentary and Igneous deposits were laid down through a great many years. This geologic evidence also shows that Ice Ages have came and gone, that various continents have moved around the planet along with the various plates, and that the Earths magnetic field switches every few million years.
p) Radioactive dating shows the universe and the planet to be far older then the young earth theory: I will post information about various radioactive dating techniques if you believe that the dating techniques are wrong.
q) Disasters and how they interact with the fossil layers: Before the iridium layer that scientist theorize was a meteorite that ended the Dinosaur we see Large reptiles but no large mammals but after it, large reptiles go away (except the crocodiles) and large mammals start appearing
r) Universe having to be old due to the time it takes light to travel: Light has to travel at the speeds that scientist say because of communication to our deep space probes, and if we look at light from other stars we get the fact they are stars just like our sun. Now look at the galaxies and in some cases we can see stars in then. Now look at quasars and those show signs of being evolving galaxies. Now scientists have distances of those quasars of being around 1500 million light years meaning that the universe has been around for over 1500 million years
s) Background Big Bang Radiation: Picked up by various equipment we have in space

References:
Comptons Interactive Encyclopedia, 1994, Comptons NewMedia.

Richard Dawkins, "The Blind Watchmaker", 1986, W.W. Norton & Co., NY.

Richard Dawkins, "River Out of Eden", 1994, BasicBooks, New York, New York

Maitland Edey & Donald Johanson, "Blueprints: Solving the mystery of
Evolution", 1989, Little, Brown, and Company, Boston/Toronto/London.

Niles Eldridge, "The Monkey Business: A Scientist Look at Creationism", 1982,
Washington Square Press, New York, New York.

John Erickson, "Ice Ages; Past and Future", 1990, Tab Books.

Jim Foley, "Fossil Hominids FAQ", 1996

Steven Jay Gould, "Ever Since Darwin; Reflections in Natural History". 1977,
, W.W. Norton, N.Y., N.Y.

Steven Jay Gould, "Panda's Thumb; More Reflections in Natural History". 1980,
W.W. Norton, NY, NY.

Kathleen Hunt, "Horse Evolution FAQ", 1993.

Kathleen Hunt, "Transitional Vertebrate Fossils FAQ", 1994.

Donald Johanson & Maitland Edey, "Lucy: The beginnings of Humankind, 1982,
Simon & Schuster, NY, NY.

Johanson, Donald, Johanson, Lenora, and Edgar, Blake. "Ancestors; In
Search of Human Origins", 1994, Random House, 1994.

Johanson & James Shreeve, "Lucy's Child: The Discovery of a Human Ancestor",
1989, Morrow, NY, NY

William K. Hartmann & Ron Miller, "The History of Earth", 1991, Workman
Publishing, NY, NY.

Phillip Kitcher, "Abusing Science: the Case Against Creationism", 1982, MIT
Press, Cambridge MA.

Richard Leakey, "The Making of Mankind", 1981, Dutton, NY, NY.

Richard Leakey, "The Origin of Humankind", 1994, Basic Books, NY, NY.

Don Lessem, "Kings of Creation: How a New Breed of Scientist is
Revolutionizing our Understanding of Dinosaur", 1992, Simon & Schuster, NY.

Jim Merret, "The General Anti-Creationism FAQ", 1996

David Normon, "Dinosaur!", 1991, Prentice Hall, NY, NY.

David Norman, "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Dinosaurs", 1985, Crescent
Books, NY, NY.

David Norman, "Prehistoric Life: The Rise of the Vertebrates", 1994, Prentice
Hall Macmillan Company, New York, New York.

Space Adventure, 1993, Knowledge Adventure Inc.

Tjeerd Van Andal,"New Views on an Old Planet: Continental Drift and the
History of the Earth", 1985, Cambridge University Press, NY.

Jonathan Weiner; "Planet Earth", 1986, Bantam Books, NY.

Discover Channel, "Farewell to Voyager", 1996.

PBS, "Nova, Odyssey of Life", 1996.

Kitsune

[Rye]

Jonathan Weiner; "Planet Earth", 1986, Bantam Books, NY.

[rick berman+brannon braga]a-huhuhhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhu a-huhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuh

you said "weiner"[/rick berman+brannon braga]