Hilarious Friend's Attempt At Arguing

[Illuminatus Primus]

M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:33:32 AM): as it stands, all nine together r 89 minutes
Imperatorus (12:33:56 AM): I hear they have a lot of stupid shit on some of them. I wished they'd revealed that the "humans for power" was just a Zion myth
Imperatorus (12:34:04 AM): because its really dumb for anyone who thinks about it
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:34:55 AM): its in the movie
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:35:02 AM): its not just a zion myth
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:35:07 AM): ...its what the machines really do
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:35:45 AM): what r u talking about?
Imperatorus (12:35:49 AM): Its what Morpheus said.
Imperatorus (12:36:10 AM): Morpheus is not infalliable (obviously he was wrong about the prophecy)
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:36:10 AM): that the machines use humans for power? yes it is what he said
Imperatorus (12:36:24 AM): it would've made more sense if they used humans for something else
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:36:28 AM): like?
Imperatorus (12:36:28 AM): thematically its interesting
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:36:38 AM): dude, u cant argue with the plot
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:36:40 AM): its the plot
Imperatorus (12:36:41 AM): anything--unique processing problems, that's for a writer to figure out
Imperatorus (12:36:52 AM): Sure I can. Lot of stories have dumb plot devices.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:37:05 AM): aye, but this is the reason that the humans r fighting back
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:37:20 AM): they dont just have them in little pods just cuz
Imperatorus (12:37:30 AM): The humans are fighting back because the majority of the race is plugged into the Matrix and imprisoned
Imperatorus (12:37:40 AM): yeah but they could've come up with a better reason for why they did
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:37:48 AM): u think of one
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:37:55 AM): i think using their bodies for power is a lovely idea
Imperatorus (12:38:13 AM): Why would you do that if you had fusion power?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:38:30 AM): originally they had solar power
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:38:33 AM): but then it got cut off
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:38:37 AM): so they needed new power
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:38:39 AM): and they chose humans
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:38:41 AM): dunno why
Imperatorus (12:38:48 AM): Morpheus said they use "a form of fusion"
Imperatorus (12:39:13 AM): And the "blocking solar power" idea is also a stupid plot device. Human beings need power from the sun more than machines.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:39:13 AM): but it has to come from something
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:39:19 AM): no
Imperatorus (12:39:20 AM): We depend on the biosphere.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:39:21 AM): thats not true
Imperatorus (12:39:25 AM): Machines do not.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:39:30 AM): yes they do
Imperatorus (12:39:32 AM): Really?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:39:34 AM): they ran on solar powered batteries
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:39:40 AM): and humans can survive without sunlight
Imperatorus (12:39:53 AM): Not without some power source to fuel everything
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:39:57 AM): this is a stupid thing to argue about
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:40:04 AM): thats why the whole world is dead
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:40:10 AM): notice there rnt any plants or animals
Imperatorus (12:41:19 AM): Fuck no, Sherlock. My point is, cutting off sunlight when your infrastructure, power, and food supply depends on a biosphere where the majority of energy comes from the sun, where as any machine capable of building a fission plant would be able to survive, is moronic.
Imperatorus (12:41:52 AM): Obviously is in-story, but an "suspension of disbelief" is hard to maintain when the premises don't make sense.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:42:14 AM): but their infrastructure, power, and food supply were all destroyed by machines
Imperatorus (12:43:03 AM): So what? How does this change that all a machine needs is power from any source? A simple uranium powered reactor would provide electricity for machines--human beings need a biosphere maintained.
Imperatorus (12:43:14 AM): Machines are a lot more efficient than organics.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:43:21 AM): john, why r u arguing about this
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:43:23 AM): its the plot of the movie
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:43:27 AM): it doesnt matter why or how
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:43:29 AM): dont ask questions
Imperatorus (12:43:30 AM): My point is, better plots have been written for fucked up worlds with machines killing all the people/.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:43:31 AM): just enjoy
Imperatorus (12:44:21 AM): It detracts from my enjoyment when the writing of the plot doesn't take a degree of common sense with it.
Imperatorus (12:45:09 AM): Its this and a lot of other things that, in my opinion, make the Terminator series (Cameron's movies, anyway) a lot better in terms of theme, social message, and plot
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:45:18 AM): thats great
Imperatorus (12:45:18 AM): than the Matrix saga
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:45:23 AM): wonderful
Imperatorus (12:47:58 AM): Look, if you want me to limit my opinions on media of various forms to "that scene was cool" or "they used too much CGI" than say so. But we started to talk about the Matrix saga, and the plot holes that detract from my enjoyment of it versus other stories of similar type came to mind.
Imperatorus (12:48:07 AM): I don't feel they were out of line.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:48:17 AM): john, i didnt bring it up
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:48:18 AM): u did
Imperatorus (12:48:36 AM): I know, but you became dismissive and sarcastic at the end. If you didn't want to discuss it, just say so.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:48:44 AM): i dont
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:48:45 AM): at all
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:48:54 AM): i dont understand why u continue to pick apart these tv shows
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:49:04 AM): when i watch a movie, i tend to throw real life out the door to some extent
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:49:57 AM): if u dont, u cant enjoy it
Imperatorus (12:50:04 AM): Sure I can.
Imperatorus (12:50:16 AM): There are a lot of movies where the plot holes are much smaller than The Matrix.
Imperatorus (12:50:41 AM): And more enjoyable simply because they don't masturbate to themselves as much as The Matrix.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:50:48 AM): as long as all the plot elements flow and dont randomly jump, im happy
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:51:03 AM): i.e. humans r enslaved for power, humans fight machines
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:51:07 AM): to me, that makes sense
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:51:12 AM): why they picked humans is no concern of mine
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:51:15 AM): its not important
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:51:25 AM): what else the machines could use for power is also not important
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:51:35 AM): i rarely question the basic elements of plot
Imperatorus (12:52:22 AM): For me it detracts from the common sense issue. I think writers should make the basic effort to make their plot dependent on at least self-consistent and at least passingly realistic premises.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:52:46 AM): it is passingly realistic
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:52:55 AM): for instance, we have no idea what happened to the other sources of energy on earth
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:52:59 AM): all the uranium may have been used up
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:53:04 AM): we dont know
Imperatorus (12:53:07 AM): Water is quite plentiful.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:53:17 AM): water may not be as effecient as humans
Imperatorus (12:53:56 AM): You think nuclear fusion sounds less efficient than plugging humans into heat exchanger?
Imperatorus (12:54:21 AM): Anyone who's ever burned a plant knows you get more energy that way than watching it be metabolized--rotting.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:55:30 AM): if they had chosen nuclear fusion, there would be no matrix
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:55:35 AM): thus we wouldnt have a movie title
Imperatorus (12:55:37 AM): No.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:55:39 AM): and therefore no movie
Imperatorus (12:55:47 AM): You're creating the false dilemma of needing power.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:56:08 AM): yes they need power
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:56:10 AM): this is what they said
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:56:12 AM): they tell us this
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:56:14 AM): why do u question?
Imperatorus (12:56:14 AM): They chose that justification, when as a writer (and thus God for the prespective of the storyline) could've chosen any number of justifications.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:56:29 AM): apparently, they used solar energy
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:56:32 AM): but then we burned the sky
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:56:39 AM): and used our faithful machines to generate life for us
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:56:41 AM): this is possible
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:56:43 AM): nextly
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:56:48 AM): the machiens needed new power
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:56:53 AM): so they took what animals were left on the planet
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:56:54 AM): us
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:57:07 AM): we last for 80-100 yrs on avg, and we generate enormous amounts of energy
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:57:11 AM): and we r renewable
Imperatorus (12:57:20 AM): Humans are a net-loss energy source
Imperatorus (12:57:26 AM): We take in more energy than we put out.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:57:40 AM): not if we're comatose in special pink water
Imperatorus (12:57:55 AM): Actually, a comatose person never puts out much energy
Imperatorus (12:58:07 AM): they never run, raise their blood pressure, metabolize food more quickly for that reason
Imperatorus (12:59:06 AM): And besides, the worst plot hole of this, is Morpheus SAYS they have an alternative: fusion power, which is better than any energy source we have or ever have had.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:59:21 AM): when does he say that?
Imperatorus (12:59:40 AM): "Combined with a form of fusion, the machines had found all the power they would ever need."
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:01:17 AM): but where would they get the power for the fusion?
Imperatorus (1:01:46 AM): Fusion is a net-gain power source--it pays for itself, plus extra. It is more than self-sufficient.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:01:57 AM): but u have to have something to fuse
Imperatorus (1:02:00 AM): Hydrogen
Imperatorus (1:02:04 AM): from water
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:02:48 AM): but u need something to power the fusion plant, no?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:02:53 AM): it doesnt just randomly fuse by itself
Imperatorus (1:02:54 AM): Water covers 75% of the Earth's surface--now unless you can demonstrate that all of it was flash-vaporized and ejected into intergalactic void, there's an nearly-unlimited source of power.
Imperatorus (1:03:19 AM): You have to heat it, and magnetically confine it--but the energy from the fusion reaction is more than enough to power the confinement process.
Imperatorus (1:03:34 AM): That's why its called a net-gain energy source--you get more than you put in/.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:03:53 AM): maybe its incorrect use of the word fusion
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:03:57 AM): maybe it doenst matter at all
Imperatorus (1:04:07 AM): Unjustified assumption.
Imperatorus (1:04:41 AM): They said fusion as a source of power. That context is only used as nuclear fusion and the burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:05:15 AM): why do u continue to care?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:05:29 AM): does it really affect the moviegoing experience that much?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:05:31 AM): cuz if it does
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:05:33 AM): just dont watch it
Imperatorus (1:05:42 AM): No it doesn't.
Imperatorus (1:05:47 AM): It lowers the quality of the story.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:05:48 AM): so why complain?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:05:52 AM): why even bring it up?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:05:55 AM): no1 has an answer
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:06:04 AM): when writing a fictional plot, u must make certain allowances
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:06:07 AM): thats how it works
Imperatorus (1:06:08 AM): Bullshit.
Imperatorus (1:06:15 AM): Plot holes are not a requirement of a plot.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:06:16 AM): cuz if it wasnt, it would be a boring story, cuz it'd be real life
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:06:25 AM): name one movie with zero plot holes
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:06:30 AM): where its all entirely realistic
Imperatorus (1:06:35 AM): None, but they don't have to be patently absurd.
Imperatorus (1:06:53 AM): Stop with the false dilemmas between zero plot holes, and the massive load of stupid shit in the Matrix.
Imperatorus (1:07:27 AM): There's a middle ground.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:08:28 AM): im just saying
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:08:30 AM): why bring it up?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:08:34 AM): the matrix didnt bother me at all
Imperatorus (1:08:52 AM): Am I supposed to know before hand what films you like and thus not offer any criticism?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:08:55 AM): in my mind every choice was made to further the plot without an absurd jump in reason
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:09:03 AM): no, criticism is one thing
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:09:10 AM): but why question the basic premise of the story
Imperatorus (1:09:27 AM): Because it could've been done better?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:09:45 AM): but if it was "done better" it'd be a completely different movie
Imperatorus (1:09:46 AM): The premise is "people in Matrix" "people imprisioned" "people trying to get free from machines"
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:09:48 AM): it wouldn't be the matrix
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:09:54 AM): it would be "hydrogen fusion: reloaded"
Imperatorus (1:09:58 AM): Now justify why that requires power
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:10:20 AM): bcuz there is no better reason for the machines to chain us to huge farms
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:10:22 AM): unless u can think of one
Imperatorus (1:10:26 AM): You're not listening. Energy needs is the excuse for the Matrix; the Matrix is the premise.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:10:59 AM): ok, so change energy needs to something more plausible
Imperatorus (1:11:06 AM): It didn't even need to be explained for the plot really--that could've left as an interesting revelation later--rather than being used up in a throw-away line that is idiotic
Imperatorus (1:11:47 AM): You don't get it. I was criticizing The Matrix as an intrinsic story. I think it is mediocre at best. Naturally I think the concept could've been done better and of course it would be a different movie.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:11:48 AM): lol if they did that ud be bitching about "why are the humans chained up? they need to explain that its so dumb"
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:11:55 AM): thats wonderful
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:12:04 AM): lol john i really dont care what u thought of the matrix
Imperatorus (1:12:04 AM): Besides, it would've made more sense to say that they used human beings as natural processors--a kind of neural net computing that the AI couldn't duplicate. Humans like baseball players constantly solve and execute problems that'd give the most sophisticated supercomputers headaches.
Imperatorus (1:12:13 AM): Than say that in the beginning.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:12:22 AM): lol i will in the future
Imperatorus (1:12:33 AM): If you don't want any comment beyond what you agree with, than say so.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:12:35 AM): i was hoping to explain to u that it doesnt have to make sense
Imperatorus (1:12:53 AM): Its a better written plot if it makes sense, no.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:12:54 AM): or we could always go with the "if i want ur opinion then ill ask for it approach"
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:13:06 AM): lol i dont know why u bring these things up
Imperatorus (1:13:14 AM): How many times do you ask for opinion before its given on a daily basis?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:13:23 AM): not often enough
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:13:28 AM): its offered wayyy too much
Imperatorus (1:13:35 AM): Well than forbid everyone to speak until asking you such.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:13:59 AM): aye every1 should do that
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:14:04 AM): it should be law
Imperatorus (1:14:52 AM): The worst is, you act like I'm attacking fiction in general, when I even gave examples of a more logical excuse and another story of the same type that I thought was better in that catagory and all around.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:15:04 AM): john, im just asking why question?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:15:11 AM): will it change things?
Imperatorus (1:15:25 AM): Will asking anything change anything?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:15:34 AM): asking what?
Imperatorus (1:15:36 AM): How many times do you speak daily where your words have no impact?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:15:45 AM): far too often
Imperatorus (1:15:52 AM): Did, today, saying that people's idiocy amazes you--did that have an impact.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:15:55 AM): im trying to limit that tho
Imperatorus (1:15:58 AM): Why even be amazed if you know its going to be.
Imperatorus (1:16:01 AM): Its inevitable.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:16:10 AM): i can change some people
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:16:13 AM): 's idiocy
Imperatorus (1:16:19 AM): Your progress is very speaking.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:16:19 AM): but i cant change the plot of the matrix
Imperatorus (1:16:36 AM): So I can't say a movie is shit because that comment won't unmake it shit?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:16:54 AM): generally
Imperatorus (1:16:59 AM): Is detailing the shittiness somehow a great vice because that won't make a difference?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:17:00 AM): why waste ur breath?
Imperatorus (1:17:07 AM): People's whole lives is sizing things up.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:17:14 AM): urs might be
Imperatorus (1:17:32 AM): You don't size up people, situations, oppurtunities constantly?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:17:39 AM): i try to limit conversation to worthwhile things...try mind u, not always succeed
Imperatorus (1:17:46 AM): You telling me you don't judge things from somesort of standard?
Imperatorus (1:17:53 AM): If so, how do you determine people are stupid.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:17:54 AM): i do, constantly, i just dont always waste my breath arguing about it
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:18:11 AM): doesnt all this arguing ever give u a headache?
Imperatorus (1:18:14 AM): Why bother noting that they are stupid or wasting valuable calories doing such if your efforts will be incredibly wasteful?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:18:33 AM): its still wasteful if u open ur mouth to babble about it
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:18:41 AM): i dont think human beings can help passing judgment on something
Imperatorus (1:18:46 AM): Because you're asking questions don't matter. People have opinions. To ask people to do elsewise is idiotic.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:18:47 AM): but keeping ur mouth shut is a learned skill
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:18:54 AM): im not
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:02 AM): ppl should keep their opinions to themselves
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:07 AM): unless asked for them
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:10 AM): thats the polite thing to do
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:14 AM): and also the sensible one
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:22 AM): we have way too many unwanted opinions floating around these days
Imperatorus (1:19:26 AM): you do not follow that virtue
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:31 AM): i try to
Imperatorus (1:19:41 AM): You fail.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:45 AM): not always
Imperatorus (1:19:50 AM): Intent does not overwrite hypocrisy.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:20:04 AM): intent and hypocrisy are two different things
Imperatorus (1:20:13 AM): That has what to do with what I said?
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:20:15 AM): and im actually very good about keeping my opinion to myself unless asked
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:20:23 AM): and unspoken asking occurs when it comes up in conversation
Imperatorus (1:20:43 AM): I'm sure you'd like to tell people off more often than you do. Point is, as long as you do, you're still violating the ideal.
Imperatorus (1:20:57 AM): And unless you're going for some prize by lower volume of violations, its still hypocrisy.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:21:00 AM): however, when i mentioned the animatrix tonight, it was not unspoken request to hear ur opinion on the fault of the matrix
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:21:16 AM): so ur saying its pointless dont even try?
Imperatorus (1:21:28 AM): Don't follow useless objectives.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:21:30 AM): and im not going for awards here, im hoping to lower it to the point where i can always stop myself
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:21:33 AM): its not useless
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:21:47 AM): generally the more intelligent ppl of the world r the ones who rnt loud and vocal about their opinions
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:21:52 AM): u learn a lot if u listen
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:22:06 AM): but as enjoyable it is to argue my habits with u, i think i shall retire now
Imperatorus (1:22:09 AM): Why? You're one of the only people who honestly believes that virtue, and few care.
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:22:17 AM): great
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:22:17 AM): i care
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:22:19 AM): and its my virtue
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:22:23 AM): i only told u cuz u asked
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:22:41 AM): lol i really dont care if others share my virtue
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:22:51 AM): goodnight
M3GAKungFuRadi0 signed off at 1:22:57 AM.

First Unjustified Claim:

M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:36:38 AM): dude, u cant argue with the plot\\\

False Dilemma 1:

M3GAKungFuRadi0 (12:37:48 AM): u think of one

Anyone else care to bring one up?

Am I off base here?

[SyntaxVorlon]

That was a long and boring conversation, ENTERTAIN ME!!!!
You could have just summed up your point, there is a plot hole or at least brought up the Matrix within a Matrix theory.

[Howedar]

I never have the patience to read those. The formatting just blows.

[DPDarkPrimus]

M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:02 AM): ppl should keep their opinions to themselves
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:07 AM): unless asked for them
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:10 AM): thats the polite thing to do
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:14 AM): and also the sensible one
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:22 AM): we have way too many unwanted opinions floating around these days

You should have asked him if he would have wanted Martin Luther King, Jr., Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, Ghandi, or any other influential historical figure to have kept their "unwanted opinons" to themselves.

[neoolong]

M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:02 AM): ppl should keep their opinions to themselves
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:07 AM): unless asked for them
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:10 AM): thats the polite thing to do
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:14 AM): and also the sensible one
M3GAKungFuRadi0 (1:19:22 AM): we have way too many unwanted opinions floating around these days

You should have asked him if he would have wanted Martin Luther King, Jr., Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, Ghandi, or any other influential historical figure to have kept their "unwanted opinons" to themselves.

[Martin Luther King]I have a dream. Ehh, you probably don't want to know.[/Martin Luther King]