A fun, fun debate!

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-07-20 11:55pm

A debate held just a little bit ago. With someone about my age, I am assuming. Still pretty fucking stupid, though.

http://www.geocities.com/darkprimus0071/Heston1.txt

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-07-21 12:10am

I mised the later third.. my sister came up to the comp room drunk and attacked me....

master_yoda · Post by **master_yoda** » 2003-07-21 01:14am

Drunken relatives. *shudder*

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2003-07-23 11:43am

Dammit, they locked the discussion of omniscence (in the evolution thread. All the religion threads get off-topic because all the religious people's arguments there rely on religion being self-evident), before I could postmy responce. I'll post it here for now:

Tonberi Muyo (that's me) wrote:I think some people are missing the point that it's not simply omniscience that would deny us of free-will, but the fact of the vast amount of variables and funtions in the universe that would have to be designed and outlined.

In a really simplified sense, the universe would be like a near-infinitely huge, interweaving domino chain, with the last one falling to the floor and shattering (hey, it's its own universe; physics can work in such a manner) If god were simply the mover of one or some of the dominoes, then of course he doesn't control it. But as the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of this simple universe, god would have to design, define, and create absolutely everything within the universe, and how it will react.

Nothing's going to happen unless it's been specified as something that can happen beforehand. Just so nobody claims this universe is unlike our own in the sense that all the dominoes are set up beforehand, let's say that only the first domino row is set up beforehand, and as soon as it starts falling over, a new sequential row is created in front of it, with a slightly different number of dominoes in it ('predetermined' by the last row, if you will), and so on and so on, so that the future rows haven't actually occurred yet. This simply means that the outcome is harder to predict, but god is the one who has to create and define how sequence of events work in this universe, I'm sure he could calculate how it will play out even if he wasn't all-knowing.

Keep in mind of all the variables god has to define even in this first row. What's a domino? How big and dense is it? How does it react to force? Is it just a product of mass x accelleration? Does it need to apply a counter-force in this universe? Does it conserve momentum? How will its potential energy convert into knietic? And what about gravity? Air resistance? heat exchange? How efficiently does energy transfer from one domino to the next domino(es)? How much is converted into heat? Perhaps some of these rules are set up so that energy progressively builds up, so that the last row receives so much force the dominoes simply shatter on impact? Or maybe progressively less force is transferred, so that they eventually simply lack the energy to knock over the next rows? Why not make them fall in random directions or in whatever manner they please? How about giving later ones the ability to sing? What enables them to do so? How high of notes can they hit? What kind of songs are they predisposed to prefer? How competent are they in recalling the lyrics?

This could go on and on and on, in far more complicated a manner than writing a new program and its porgramming language from scratch. But lets just say this domino universe will be designed to act in more or less the familiar manner (asides from the new rows being created one after the other), but god adds in the bonus that as soon as the chain reaches they ledge of the table, the latest row will plummet off the edge and shatter. Could god have designed this universe in such a way so that they didn't have to fall, or at least not shatter? Of course; nothing could have happend without god making it capable of hapenning, and nothing would have happened if god didn't initiate, enable and allow it to happen.

I wonder how many people would have simply said god would have left most of those questions above as simply 'random variables', and let the domino chain be determined by mostly random chance. Kinda puts a dent in the 'Intelligent Design' theory if god can't even create a domino chain without letting random chace take over (let alone lending a hand to making a universe made of energy able to bear intelligent life). Unless you believe in those professors who suggest the universe is an immaterial 'dream' of god's that'll dissappear the moment he stops thinking us up.

EDIT: Damn, they've edited 3 of the five threads I've posted in. Not exactly open to debate, are they?

EDIT 2: "Not exactly open" is an understatement. Hooray for plugging ones ears, I guess.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-07-23 04:05pm

They deleted two of my posts in the "Most Christlike Debater" thread.

First post:

"Wait, what do you mean, most "Christlike" debater? Someone who has never been proven to exist, whose followers blew his accomplishments wildy out of proportion, and who said he was right because his dad told him so?"

To which someone said I was trying to be deliberately off topic, and that they were talking about the Holy Jesus Christ.

Second post:

"Oh, I'm not off-topic. You answered my question. We're talking about the same guy. Thanks!"