Did Jesus of Nazareth Actually Exist?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Raoul Duke, Jr., quote poeple correctly, you fucking idiot, so everyone else knows who the fuck you're responding to.

[lgot]

The funny thing is no one here was saying anything about People can or not believe in Jesus, but only if he was real. It was actually asked to why people do not believe in Jesus myth, not otherwise. Your right to believe does not make you right...

[Utsanomiko]

Really? Then try using some logic and rational thought in evaluating the needs of all people to be allowed to live (again, within the confines of the law) as they choose; to believe what they choose and to pursue their beliefs to the extent allowed by society. Your application of logic is at best selective -- you can find the logical reason to humiliate those who believe differently from yourself, but your logic falls short of informing you that said practice is the same that has left religion so reviled.

NEWS FLASH!!:
We do know better than they do, they admittedly ignore logic!
You were absent today in reality. Two more unexcused absences and you will be dropped.

And who's laws should we confine ourselves to? Laws aren't always rational; they just reflect the opinions of the majority. In some nations it's perfectly legal to stone your adulterous wife to death, 'cause that's their belief, and it apparently shouldn't be criticized or rationalized.
I prefer to make my own moral judgements, which seem to fit most legal codes, though the few that might not I keep quiet in order to enjoy the benefits of freedom in my home country. Just because no laws keep you from being an idiot doesn't mean nobody will expect you not to be one.

I wouldn't even pretend opening my mouth was right if I were as dumb as you. What's that? I'm humiliating you? Well whoop-de-shit. Grow up and realize that some thoughts are just plain wrong. You hear me? Wrong! W-R-O-N-G. 'Wrong' as in 'clouds are made of cotton'. 'Wrong' as in 'the Earth's gravity is generated by 14 seven-mile-wide gyroscopes built by ancient Gnomish Monks of the Johmon Era'. Wrong! Don't pretend you don't believe the word exists either, dammit!

And guess what? I wrote ya a letter while I was offline during the past three hours:


Dear Raoul,

It is my belief that you are a spineless, thoughtless, idiotic little tit that doesn't have the will to figure out what is right and wrong. I believe you to be too stupid to even know what to do with the life you've been given, and therefore don't deserve it. That is my belief, and how DARE you even think of disrespecting it's validity, by going on with your pathetic fasimile of a life. I believe that's even worse than telling me not to have that belief in the first place. Stop being so stupid, it's an insult to my beliefs.

People basically don't deserve to believe in anything if they can't back them up rationally. As a non-political, non-conformist atheist, I believe in logic, which is a contraditcion, as adhereing to the pursuit of the most valid answer is different than adhereing to a specific belief such as 'God says it's okay to hate you', 'whites are smarter', or 'we shouldn't assume we know anything to be true'. I can believe in a sense of fairness and the need to protect those around me, as I can conclude that it wouldn't be reasonable to do otherwise. I can believe that my conclusions have weight in my life as well as others, and to concede those conclusions when more rational ones are presented.

Technically, you believe nothing. You're worse than any specific fanatical group. With that kind of nihilistic mentality, you're denying truth, allwoing yourself to support the validity of any and all beliefs, which is no different than actually claiming them to be your own. By saying everyone can believe what they want, and no one has the right to say otherwise, you are being a right-wing lunatic, a socialist, a neo-nazi, a KKK clansmen, a fundamentalist moron, an islamic terrorist, a PETA member, a flat-earther, an escapist pre-teen convinced he is a level-12 Gnomish Wizard, a cross-burner, an anti cross-burner, a supporter of the Human Instrumentality Project, and a Ctlulhu Cultist, all rolled up in the same instant. You're also my bitch, who believes that polishing my shoes it your greatest task in life. You cannot truly accept the validity of all beliefs without believing in them, at some fundemental level.

Your added mentality that 'some don't deserve to be acted upon' is only more spineless and irresolute. Suppressing the beliefs and actions of other belief systems is essential to those irrational mentalities. If you respect all of their beliefs, you cannot take an action that someone doesn't consider to not be worth acting upon (how can you choose one set of life choices if they disrespect someone's beliefs?). You effectively cancel out all possible actions to take, leaving you to spend life merely sitting on the side lines, cheering every side on and repeating "we're all entitled to our opinions, and I'm not going to be one to tread on them." Only retards think every opinion is right, but only certain ones are right enough to be acted upon.

If you didn't catch all that, let me add a simplified statement (Basically, anyone who responds only to this paragraph, I'll assume didn't/refused to/couldn't understand the first 4 paragraphs, so no nit-picking.):

If everyone is entitled to their beliefs, regardless of rationality, then I believe that my beliefs are worth more than your beliefs, and therefore override anything you say. If not, then Raoul is a stupid pansy-assed kid who has never been forced to get a grip on reality. So stand up straight, get that goddamn cigarette butt (that you filtched from an ashtray) out of your mouth, and get a real fucking job.

In other words, you're not worth the filth you are made of, Snookums. Have a nice, subjective day, you soliphistic freak.

Lots of love, Darth Utsanomiko.


Does eveyone love letters as much as I do? It's so fun and enjoyable to write them. They fill my evenings with warm and fuzzy feelings.

[Spoonist]

Yikes, a flame fest.
Another topic that will not be further discussed, sigh.

[Vympel]

I've already gone to three Christian websites and gotten into flame wars with four separate moderators. Guess what? I won on every count. Two of them eventually had to admit that their beliefs were irrational. One of them concluded by saying, "I will pray for you," (thanks, guy ) and one of them told me that he was sickened that anyone would spend so much time trying to destroy someone else's beliefs (as if he hadn't spent just as much time, and probably more, trying to say that I was completely wrong in my beliefs). It does not take guts if you know that you are right. In this case, you were wrong. Then it does take guts, because all the time you must know that anyone who bothers to do a really well researched job of it can easily take you apart. That does take guts. It does not take brains.

Got links to those Christian websites?

I'm collecting a huge database of pithy quotes

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Really? Then try using some logic and rational thought in evaluating the needs of all people to be allowed to live (again, within the confines of the law) as they choose; to believe what they choose and to pursue their beliefs to the extent allowed by society. Your application of logic is at best selective -- you can find the logical reason to humiliate those who believe differently from yourself, but your logic falls short of informing you that said practice is the same that has left religion so reviled.

NEWS FLASH!!:
We do know better than they do, they admittedly ignore logic!
You were absent today in reality. Two more unexcused absences and you will be dropped.

And who's laws should we confine ourselves to? Laws aren't always rational; they just reflect the opinions of the majority. In some nations it's perfectly legal to stone your adulterous wife to death, 'cause that's their belief, and it apparently shouldn't be criticized or rationalized.
I prefer to make my own moral judgements, which seem to fit most legal codes, though the few that might not I keep quiet in order to enjoy the benefits of freedom in my home country. Just because no laws keep you from being an idiot doesn't mean nobody will expect you not to be one.

I wouldn't even pretend opening my mouth was right if I were as dumb as you. What's that? I'm humiliating you? Well whoop-de-shit. Grow up and realize that some thoughts are just plain wrong. You hear me? Wrong! W-R-O-N-G. 'Wrong' as in 'clouds are made of cotton'. 'Wrong' as in 'the Earth's gravity is generated by 14 seven-mile-wide gyroscopes built by ancient Gnomish Monks of the Johmon Era'. Wrong! Don't pretend you don't believe the word exists either, dammit!

And guess what? I wrote ya a letter while I was offline during the past three hours:


Dear Raoul,

It is my belief that you are a spineless, thoughtless, idiotic little tit that doesn't have the will to figure out what is right and wrong. I believe you to be too stupid to even know what to do with the life you've been given, and therefore don't deserve it. That is my belief, and how DARE you even think of disrespecting it's validity, by going on with your pathetic fasimile of a life. I believe that's even worse than telling me not to have that belief in the first place. Stop being so stupid, it's an insult to my beliefs.

People basically don't deserve to believe in anything if they can't back them up rationally. As a non-political, non-conformist atheist, I believe in logic, which is a contraditcion, as adhereing to the pursuit of the most valid answer is different than adhereing to a specific belief such as 'God says it's okay to hate you', 'whites are smarter', or 'we shouldn't assume we know anything to be true'. I can believe in a sense of fairness and the need to protect those around me, as I can conclude that it wouldn't be reasonable to do otherwise. I can believe that my conclusions have weight in my life as well as others, and to concede those conclusions when more rational ones are presented.

Technically, you believe nothing. You're worse than any specific fanatical group. With that kind of nihilistic mentality, you're denying truth, allwoing yourself to support the validity of any and all beliefs, which is no different than actually claiming them to be your own. By saying everyone can believe what they want, and no one has the right to say otherwise, you are being a right-wing lunatic, a socialist, a neo-nazi, a KKK clansmen, a fundamentalist moron, an islamic terrorist, a PETA member, a flat-earther, an escapist pre-teen convinced he is a level-12 Gnomish Wizard, a cross-burner, an anti cross-burner, a supporter of the Human Instrumentality Project, and a Ctlulhu Cultist, all rolled up in the same instant. You're also my bitch, who believes that polishing my shoes it your greatest task in life. You cannot truly accept the validity of all beliefs without believing in them, at some fundemental level.

Your added mentality that 'some don't deserve to be acted upon' is only more spineless and irresolute. Suppressing the beliefs and actions of other belief systems is essential to those irrational mentalities. If you respect all of their beliefs, you cannot take an action that someone doesn't consider to not be worth acting upon (how can you choose one set of life choices if they disrespect someone's beliefs?). You effectively cancel out all possible actions to take, leaving you to spend life merely sitting on the side lines, cheering every side on and repeating "we're all entitled to our opinions, and I'm not going to be one to tread on them." Only retards think every opinion is right, but only certain ones are right enough to be acted upon.

If you didn't catch all that, let me add a simplified statement (Basically, anyone who responds only to this paragraph, I'll assume didn't/refused to/couldn't understand the first 4 paragraphs, so no nit-picking.):

If everyone is entitled to their beliefs, regardless of rationality, then I believe that my beliefs are worth more than your beliefs, and therefore override anything you say. If not, then Raoul is a stupid pansy-assed kid who has never been forced to get a grip on reality. So stand up straight, get that goddamn cigarette butt (that you filtched from an ashtray) out of your mouth, and get a real fucking job.

In other words, you're not worth the filth you are made of, Snookums. Have a nice, subjective day, you soliphistic freak.

Lots of love, Darth Utsanomiko.


Does eveyone love letters as much as I do? It's so fun and enjoyable to write them. They fill my evenings with warm and fuzzy feelings.

Wonderful. Bravo. Now here's a letter for you, you arrogant, self-righteous, elitist piece of filth:

Dear Darth,

Go piss in a fan -- and, while you're at it, stand too close. Your opinion of me or my ideas, and especially your opinion of the fact that I defend free thought (something you, as an Atheist, should appreciate) means less to me than a glob of seal shit on a polar ice cap. If you think that by intellectual bullying will accomplish your objectives, go join the Catholic fucking Church; they're masters of it, and will undoubtedly dig your shtick. I, on the other hand, am not impressed. So take a word of kindly advice from dear old Dr. Gonzo, you pathetic, soulless little worm -- back off.

This flame sponsored by The Committee For Returned Favors.

[Utsanomiko]

Problem is, you aren't defending 'free thought' in the sense that anyone actually comes up with anything substantial, besides pansy-assed, ideallistic, proto-Cartesian meditations. You cant get anything done in a world where eveyone sits around and goes "my conclusions are just as right as your conclusions, and nothing's certain. Everyone wins the debate today, YAAY!"

the Catholic Church aren't masters of anything intellectual; they just state that 'our word is the right word', without regard to the empirical evidence or logic, which is no different than your idiotic assumption 'everyone's word is technically the right word'. That's the problem.

The whole point of group thought is to give something to follow for people too weak and stupid to find their own way. Again, you follow nothing! Your pansy-assed, anti-conclusive soliphism is only used by people too weak and stupid to find any way. Going nowhere is worse than going the wrong way, you pathetic, spineless little worm -- get moving, the real world is leaving you behind.

And on a side note, I already said that I believed that my beliefs override yours by default. Don't tell me my beliefs are worthless, you hypocrite. if you think I'm being angry, you're wrong; I'm posting with a jolly-good smile. If you think I'm being mean, grow up. and take a good look at yourself, you delusional wreck of a person! You can't even demonstrate the mental capacity to come up with your own beliefs; for all I know, you're just quoting some crap you read in an essay. Get a more realistic security blanket, kid.

Either that, or just consider the solophistic postulate that we're speaking two different languages (that only coincidentally look the same), and declare that you don't need to aknowledge opposition.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Oh, I acknowledge opposition, Darth. I have already acknowledged that you're a self-righteous, elitist little prick (or is that prickETTE?) who blatantly and relentlessly engages in strawman attacks because you can't deal with the real points I'm making. Furthermore, I do believe in something; I believe in exposing little cunts like you for the pompous frauds you really are.

Now no one in your little clique here is going to cop to it, but trust me -- the 'netizens' of SDnet aren't the only ones reading these exchanges, and your bloated opinion of your 'reasoning' is striking the wider audience as being far from impressive. If you can't handle my 'live and let live' philosophy, that's fine. You're perfectly free to live that way, for as long as the people around you will permit. I, on the other hand, am content with a wider audience of supporters, friends and fans than just the few open minds to be found here.

As far as life passing me by, I make a living as a journalist and novelist. I get paid to have fun and be creative, and believe me, I'm making the most of it. I've just finished a screenplay, and the only reason I'm here is because my girlfriend is into these things, I've debated Darth Wong in the past, and it keeps my writing jones satisfied.

[Utsanomiko]

NEWS FLASH!!:
-People can believe in whatever they want, but they can be WRONG!
-there is something wrong with being irrational.
-Only spineless morons pretend they go through life without subverting other's beliefs in order to promote their own


And sinse when did I have a clique? Where? I thought I ignored group authority and went on my own path of objective, atheistic, apolitical, analysis way back in middle school. Are you suggesting that logic makes people exactly the same, as opposed to solopsism never allowing people to critisize, build up theories, and make their own conclusions beyond "maybe a 1000-fold ship advantage will only affect the feds a tiny bit. But everyone's right anyway. YAAY!"? What stupid nonsense.

I believe in exposing little cunts like you for the pompous frauds you really are.

You've got your own little crusade to expose people who look at things objectively and don't pretend that there are no stupid opinions. That's rich. Just how do you plan on proving this, if all opinions have the same validity? you can't, unless you ignore your 'philosopy' for a minute to vent out your anger.

You're perfectly free to live that way, for as long as the people around you will permit

Now that's a scary dystopia. I would hate to live in a world where everyone thinks that nobody's beliefs should be intruded on, unless they motivate their actions, and again only the ones that the Authority feels should be hampered. what the hell is with your mindless support of the Law, anyway? Do you actually think the government has anything in mind other than maintaining control? If that means ignoring reason and letting aldulterers be stoned to death, they let it. If that means letting people believe that whites are superior, or clouds are made of cotton, they let it. Fortunately in my nation, they also let me conclude that they are irrational fucktards.

Right and wrong is defined only by those who are strong enough to enforce it. You're a spineless lap-doggie if you think it's okay for them to say which belief-motivated actions get to be repressed.

Now then, I'm beginning to wonder whether or not you are the fraud here. Isn't it even remotely possible that this whole thing is just a farce, either to get you through the complex choices and uncertainties in life, or maybe just to promote your ideas online, without backing them up scientifically? I'll have to mull that idea over when more evidence pops up.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

NEWS FLASH!!:
-People can believe in whatever they want, but they can be WRONG!
-there is something wrong with being irrational.
-Only spineless morons pretend they go through life without subverting other's beliefs in order to promote their own


And sinse when did I have a clique? Where? I thought I ignored group authority and went on my own path of objective, atheistic, apolitical, analysis way back in middle school. Are you suggesting that logic makes people exactly the same, as opposed to solopsism never allowing people to critisize, build up theories, and make their own conclusions beyond "maybe a 1000-fold ship advantage will only affect the feds a tiny bit. But everyone's right anyway. YAAY!"? What stupid nonsense.

I believe in exposing little cunts like you for the pompous frauds you really are.

You've got your own little crusade to expose people who look at things objectively and don't pretend that there are no stupid opinions. That's rich. Just how do you plan on proving this, if all opinions have the same validity? you can't, unless you ignore your 'philosopy' for a minute to vent out your anger.

You're perfectly free to live that way, for as long as the people around you will permit

Now that's a scary dystopia. I would hate to live in a world where everyone thinks that nobody's beliefs should be intruded on, unless they motivate their actions, and again only the ones that the Authority feels should be hampered. what the hell is with your mindless support of the Law, anyway? Do you actually think the government has anything in mind other than maintaining control? If that means ignoring reason and letting aldulterers be stoned to death, they let it. If that means letting people believe that whites are superior, or clouds are made of cotton, they let it. Fortunately in my nation, they also let me conclude that they are irrational fucktards.

Right and wrong is defined only by those who are strong enough to enforce it. You're a spineless lap-doggie if you think it's okay for them to say which belief-motivated actions get to be repressed.

Now then, I'm beginning to wonder whether or not you are the fraud here. Isn't it even remotely possible that this whole thing is just a farce, either to get you through the complex choices and uncertainties in life, or maybe just to promote your ideas online, without backing them up scientifically? I'll have to mull that idea over when more evidence pops up.

Well, if you're coming by your opinions objectively -- which you're not -- the same as everyone else who has objectively come to the same conclusion, and the lot of you congregate in forums such as this, does that not make you a group? And, as a group, do you not shout down, mock and humiliate people who disagree with you on the basis that, since they don't conform to your approach, they must be stupid? Sounds like a clique to me...

As for that last bit, what a fucking laugh riot -- first you say I'm spineless and have no ideas of my own, then you accuse me of pushing ideas you just said I don't have down people's throats! Classic!

And you're accusing me of being spineless because I'm standing up to you? Because I'm not conforming to your idea that anyone who believes in something should be mocked as a conformist? You arrogant fuck, did you ever stop to think that people make an informed choice in what they will or will not believe? Did you? Did anyone indoctrinate you into being an Atheist? Or did you choose it because it's what best fir the way you understand the world around you?

You're just not learning; let me speak your language for a minute:

NEWS FLASH!!!
I have my own beliefs.
I am not answerable to you or anyone else for them.
I will defend the rights of others to believe what they want in the face of bullying and persecution of the kind you've been trying to dish out to me.
And lastly -- do pay attention here:
I don't give a FUCK whether or not you or anyone else approve of any of these facts.

[Utsanomiko]

I have my own beliefs.
I am not answerable to you or anyone else for them.
I will defend the rights of others to believe what they want in the face of bullying and persecution of the kind you've been trying to dish out to me.
And lastly -- do pay attention here:
I don't give a FUCK whether or not you or anyone else approve of any of these facts.

You could at least pretend to act like a rational person and answer to logic. Then I wouldn't be forced to conclude that you are a moron. But no, you have to pretend that actually facing the facts tromps on people's free will. Soliphistic free will my ass. Those irrational people with their thoughtless, unrealistic beliefs are slaves to stupidity, enslaved by anti-intellectual despots who know simple people are easy to sway with propaganda. Logic is what allows people to find themselves in this mess of cliques and groups and maintsream culture.

But hell, I can look over the raving straw-man attacks in your last post:

-That my stance is pro-group, when clearly is it logic-above-gut-feelings.
-That I said you were pushing ideas, when i merely hypothesized you were using said ideas as a security blanket.
-That I give a FUCK whether or not anyone else approves of any of your ideas, either.

...And conclude that you are irrational? Why the hell shouldn't irrational thoughts be worthless thought? "I'm a Mushroom-Dally-Doodle-Chicken!! Gruggle, GRUGGLE!!" Why is that one worth more than "Based on the evidence, there is little certainty whether Jesus was a single real person or not"?

Because of reasoning. You have to have some means to sift through your available beliefs and thoughts, otherwise anyone can easily conclude that you only have intelligent-sounding ideas because you've aquired them from other sources based on what you already believe. My atheism would mean SHIT if I didn't pick it up on it's rational value. Every person at one point in their life has to analyze and critique what their beliefs are based on. If it's not through logic, than it's either throught what others tell you, or just randomization of what you pull out of your ass.

But why should that matter to anyone too dumb to do so? That's why you're made such idiotic arguments in the past, that's why you're making such thick-headed straw-man attacks, and that's why I'm no longer compelled to appeal to reasoning. If I want to discuss this topic again later, I'll be using the irrational tactics I've seen used by every soliphist, nihilist, religous wacko, conceptual idealist, and death cultists. not just in playing Devil's Advocate, either. I'll cover the whole field, if that's how you play. You want all beliefs to be valid? Sounds fun, if I get a share of the merchandising royalties, I'll be there for the performance.

Well, if you're coming by your opinions objectively -- which you're not

Proof?...

No, of course not. You can't go chasing that one, anymore than a fanatical Babtist would climb out from under his doctrination to proove Jesus was the son of God. It's too frightening outside of the shadow of authority-backed mantra.

Either way, you've made it clear you have no interest in taking other's opinions into account, and I've made it clear that other's opinions better answer to reason before I will. So I think someone should just be getting back to the thread's original subject.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Well hear, fucking hear. Finally, something we agree on. Threadjack terminated.

[Utsanomiko]

Jesus was a Gummi Bear.


Ok, ok sorry, just had to say it. Now threadjack terminated.