Is it ok to use the word rape synonymously with curbstomp

[General Zod]

While I will never say that we should blame the victim, it is important to teach ways one can avoid scenarios which could potentially lead to a rape - just as someone is taught to look both ways before crossing the street, or not to get into cars with strangers.

That's a really big can of worms right there.

Well, I can sort of see what you're getting at, but teaching life skills that can protect people is very important - you don't go down a dark alley, alone, in a strange neighborhood, you don't take an open drink from someone you don't trust, and you shouldn't go to a party at a unknown person's house without a group that you can rely on.

Which sort of breaks down once you take into account how many women are raped by people they know and trust.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

yeah thats basically Rape Culture.txt

Spekio, I was perhaps (definitely) excessively harsh in my statements to you last night. Obviously there are some cultural differences and language barriers here, and I don't actually think you should kill yourself.

[Simon_Jester]

So, while banning toy guns under the pretense of curbing violence might have a worthy goal, it does nothing to adress the reason gun violence exists in the first place.

The rape metaphor is the same to me. It has a negative connotation, same as murder. I really think that instead one needed more investment in education to change the cultural realities that enable the rape culture. As for "making light" of rape and such, there is no reason why we shouldn't do the same for murder.

The trick is that small changes in the way we handle subtle social details can play a role in changing how we handle larger issues.

So making rape a subject of jokes, something that it's socially permissible for men to laugh about among themselves, and making the verb "to rape" a synonym for "to score a huge victory and humiliate one's opponent..." these things could easily make men more predisposed to commit rape. There's certainly supporting evidence for this; a disproportionate number of rapists show exactly the kind of machismo culture and sex-as-dominance or sex-as-punishment mindset involved.

It is less likely that toy guns cause gun violence. For one, because as you proved, there's less of a correlation (kids with toy guns don't all grow up to be gunmen, any more than all kids with toy spaceships grow up to be astronauts). But also because we know that all but a tiny number of children understand the difference between toys and reality.

Whereas we have no such assurance that the men who are likely to commit rape understand the difference between reality and their self-serving sexual fantasies. Anything that makes the act of nonconsensual sex sound more like a funny or amusing thing, or a thing that somehow lets them establish their superiority over the victim, has the potential to push them over the edge.

yeah thats basically Rape Culture.txt

Spekio, I was perhaps (definitely) excessively harsh in my statements to you last night. Obviously there are some cultural differences and language barriers here, and I don't actually think you should kill yourself.

A question.

In your judgment, is it possible to inform people (especially women) on the characteristic behaviors of a man likely to commit rape, without in some way blaming them if a rape occurs?

To take such an informing and roll it up into a very tight summary, it might go like:

"Is this person chronically insensitive, moody, vindictive? Do they tend to bully others, get angry, get violent with people or with inanimate objects? Are they prone to obsession, especially with you? Are they prone to deny, ignore or deflect responsibility for their own bad actions, and try to pass off serious transgressions as "not their fault?" If so, this person might be a threat to you, and it would be wise to avoid them, or at least to avoid being in a position where you are vulnerable to them."

To some extent this is just plain good advice, for avoiding becoming the victim of any crime, I would think- spending time around insensitive, angry people who refuse to take responsibility for their actions is never going to end well.

But if research shows that many rapists fit this kind of personality profile, would it be reasonable to warn others about this, without in any way assuming they're somehow to blame if they end up the victim of a sexual assault?

[General Zod]

To take such an informing and roll it up into a very tight summary, it might go like:

"Is this person chronically insensitive, moody, vindictive? Do they tend to bully others, get angry, get violent with people or with inanimate objects? Are they prone to obsession, especially with you? Are they prone to deny, ignore or deflect responsibility for their own bad actions, and try to pass off serious transgressions as "not their fault?" If so, this person might be a threat to you, and it would be wise to avoid them, or at least to avoid being in a position where you are vulnerable to them."

To some extent this is just plain good advice, for avoiding becoming the victim of any crime, I would think- spending time around insensitive, angry people who refuse to take responsibility for their actions is never going to end well.

But if research shows that many rapists fit this kind of personality profile, would it be reasonable to warn others about this, without in any way assuming they're somehow to blame if they end up the victim of a sexual assault?

No amount of warning or advice is going to help a 120lb girl overpower a 200lb quarterbacker. It's all about power, so I think if we started changing the narrative that being raped doesn't devalue a woman or make them any less of a person we'd see a bigger difference than bullshit tips about "don't walk alone in an alley at night".

[Ralin]

I personally think it goes without saying that advice that actually helps isn't what people object to, as opposed to the useless and often contradictory and counter productive advice I tend to see women getting. But as you said, the example you just gave is really just plain good advice that we would give even if God decided tomorrow to alter the universe to make it so that rape was physically impossible. So I don't think it's really relevant

[SilverWingedSeraph]

In your judgment, is it possible to inform people (especially women) on the characteristic behaviors of a man likely to commit rape, without in some way blaming them if a rape occurs?

To take such an informing and roll it up into a very tight summary, it might go like:

"Is this person chronically insensitive, moody, vindictive? Do they tend to bully others, get angry, get violent with people or with inanimate objects? Are they prone to obsession, especially with you? Are they prone to deny, ignore or deflect responsibility for their own bad actions, and try to pass off serious transgressions as "not their fault?" If so, this person might be a threat to you, and it would be wise to avoid them, or at least to avoid being in a position where you are vulnerable to them."

To some extent this is just plain good advice, for avoiding becoming the victim of any crime, I would think- spending time around insensitive, angry people who refuse to take responsibility for their actions is never going to end well.

But if research shows that many rapists fit this kind of personality profile, would it be reasonable to warn others about this, without in any way assuming they're somehow to blame if they end up the victim of a sexual assault?

I'm not going to lie, that sort of advice, the piece you gave right there, is a very good, legitimate piece of advice to any person. It could indeed prevent people from being assaulted, raped, murdered or become the victim of any number of other crimes. It is also more difficult to twist around to blame the victim, but alternatively, battered-wife syndrome and stockholm syndrome are things that exist, and I can picture a certain type of people saying "she should have known better than to be around that sort of person".

But still, as far as advice on the subject goes that isn't actually just unhelpful victim-blaming garbage, that's about as good as it gets, sure.

No amount of warning or advice is going to help a 120lb girl overpower a 200lb quarterbacker. It's all about power, so I think if we started changing the narrative that being raped doesn't devalue a woman or make them any less of a person we'd see a bigger difference than bullshit tips about "don't walk alone in an alley at night".

Really can't disagree with any of this.

The idea that we need to educate woman on how to not get raped really needs to die in a fire. We need to educate people to stop being fucking rapists.

[AniThyng]

The idea that we need to educate woman on how to not get raped really needs to die in a fire. We need to educate people to stop being fucking rapists.

How does that work? Are there really so many people who are genuinely ignorant that what they are about to do is a crime versus people who just don't care that it is/think they won't get caught?

[SilverWingedSeraph]

The idea that we need to educate woman on how to not get raped really needs to die in a fire. We need to educate people to stop being fucking rapists.

How does that work? Are there really so many people who are genuinely ignorant that what they are about to do is a crime versus people who just don't care that it is/think they won't get caught?

Yes. I don't even know how to put this. Yes, there are a great many number of such people. That is why spousal rape is still not considered to be something that exists in parts of the world. That's why 'jokes' like "It's not rape if they can't say no" exist. The concept that forcing yourself onto a woman through any means is rape and a crime is surprising news to a depressingly large segment of the population. If you intentionally intoxicate a woman to the point she is barely capable of standing and hardly remembers the night, and you have sex with her, that's rape, right? Everyone can agree on that, right?

Wrong.




Man, I really hate I needed to look that garbage up. The "Mens' Rights Movement" is full of this sort of toxic shit, and if you really want a fun time, look up Red-Pill/Pick Up Artists. It's basically men giving each other advice on how to 'score women', and a large portion of this advice is basically a guide and endorsement to sexually assault and sometimes flat out rape women.

This shit is really depressingly prevalent. It makes me sick to think about.

[Spekio]

The trick is that small changes in the way we handle subtle social details can play a role in changing how we handle larger issues.....

While I don't disagree with that, I find the problem is much more ingrained in western society's weird hang-ups about sex. I find it difficult tobelieve small things that would push one to rape, when we have major factors that perpetuate rape culture.

I'll ask you if there are any studies on it. I'd be happy to change opinions, I'm just skeptic.

Spekio, I was perhaps (definitely) excessively harsh in my statements to you last night. Obviously there are some cultural differences and language barriers here, and I don't actually think you should kill yourself.

Apologies(?) accepted.

For what it's worth, I really sympathize with your ordeal. I'm sorry if you were marginalized or reneged justice.

[Ziggy Stardust]

The idea that we need to educate woman on how to not get raped really needs to die in a fire. We need to educate people to stop being fucking rapists.

Is there any reason why the two are necessarily mutually exclusive? Assuming there is some sort of education that can be given to women to help lower the chance of rape (note: I realize this is a major assumption, given the nature of date rape and all, but for now let's just presume that this is the case), why not provide it? It doesn't prevent us from also educating men, and it doesn't implicitly blame the women. What's the point of denying a possible source of help just to make an ideological stand? Now, if it turns out that there is no exploitable pattern in date rape to make this education feasible, that's another thing entirely, but at the moment I don't think there's evidence that this is the case.

[General Zod]

The idea that we need to educate woman on how to not get raped really needs to die in a fire. We need to educate people to stop being fucking rapists.

Is there any reason why the two are necessarily mutually exclusive? Assuming there is some sort of education that can be given to women to help lower the chance of rape (note: I realize this is a major assumption, given the nature of date rape and all, but for now let's just presume that this is the case), why not provide it? It doesn't prevent us from also educating men, and it doesn't implicitly blame the women. What's the point of denying a possible source of help just to make an ideological stand? Now, if it turns out that there is no exploitable pattern in date rape to make this education feasible, that's another thing entirely, but at the moment I don't think there's evidence that this is the case.

What makes this "education" any different from generic self defense training? Why does it have to be tailored just for women with added junk that probably won't help?

[Ziggy Stardust]

Why does it have to be tailored just for women with added junk that probably won't help?

I was rather explicit in my post in conjecturing that there was an education program that would undoubtably help. That was the entire point of my hypothetical question. I fully admit that there is a possibility that any possible education program wouldn't work so well, in which case it's a different argument.

I was just asking SilverWingedSeraph if his opinion would change at all if such an effective education program actually did exist, or if he were morally opposed to just the idea of it, perceiving it as an implicit blame on the fault of women rather than men. I thought I had made it clear, but in case I did not that's the gist of what I am saying. I am not arguing that such a program exists or should be implemented, just curious to see how people's opinions on the issue may or may not change in my hypothetical scenario where such a program DOES exist.

[biostem]

The idea that we need to educate woman on how to not get raped really needs to die in a fire. We need to educate people to stop being fucking rapists.

I have to disagree. People that commit rape are not normal folks who are just genuinely mistaken - there is something fundamentally wrong with these people, and it needs to be addressed by either removing them from society or a whole lot of therapy. Normal, decent people do not and would not commit rape. There is no personality type that is "functional" in all areas, except when it comes to understanding that "no means no" and that just because someone can't say no, it is ok to have sex with them.

My angle is this - there are no reliable methods of weeding these dysfunctional people out of society, but there are some warning signs that people can be trained to look for, and remove themselves from situations where such people can take advantage of them - the most obvious is allowing yourself to become impaired and being alone with strangers.

Again, I want to emphasize that I am NOT blaming the victim, here - I want to empower them to avoid problem situations in the first place.

Until such a time that we can reliably identify people that have the faulty mentalities that make them think rape/non-consensual sex is ok, we have to address those people that we can reach.

[General Zod]

I was rather explicit in my post in conjecturing that there was an education program that would undoubtably help. That was the entire point of my hypothetical question. I fully admit that there is a possibility that any possible education program wouldn't work so well, in which case it's a different argument.

I think it misses the point a bit. Let me put it this way.

Have you ever heard of a car-jacking victim being accused of leading a car thief on? Maybe they were asking for it because they forgot to lock the doors and they had a really nice ride?

[AniThyng]

I was rather explicit in my post in conjecturing that there was an education program that would undoubtably help. That was the entire point of my hypothetical question. I fully admit that there is a possibility that any possible education program wouldn't work so well, in which case it's a different argument.

I think it misses the point a bit. Let me put it this way.

Have you ever heard of a car-jacking victim being accused of leading a car thief on? Maybe they were asking for it because they forgot to lock the doors and they had a really nice ride?

So we educate people not to steal cars now? Does that work?

We do have such things as "Please be aware of your surroundings and do not leave your valuables unattended/exposed as there are pickpockets" warnings all over the place - and it's not for nothing that hotels have safes.

I mean, I am loathe to bring in crimes of lesser magnitude, but let's take computer security - you can "educate" people not to hack, but when there is a security breech and people's photos/data/credit card numbers whatevr are stolen, do we blame the hacker, or do we blame the poor security practices?

Edit:

It still seems though that such rapists that would gush about double standards still know what they do is essencially wrong, they have just rationalized it to be acceptable - if we're going to bring carjackers into it, that would be like, please, find me a carjacker who doesn't know waht he does is wrong. There is no comparision.

[General Zod]

So we educate people not to steal cars now? Does that work?

That's not my argument.

We do have such things as "Please be aware of your surroundings and do not leave your valuables unattended/exposed as there are pickpockets" warnings all over the place - and it's not for nothing that hotels have safes.

I mean, I am loathe to bring in crimes of lesser magnitude, but let's take computer security - you can "educate" people not to hack, but when there is a security breech and people's photos/data/credit card numbers whatevr are stolen, do we blame the hacker, or do we blame the poor security practices?

The point was that the amount of responsibility we put on rape victims is absurd and it just ignores the big picture. It's like telling a black kid to not carry skittles and iced tea around George Zimmerman. On the surface it looks sensible, but it doesn't say anything about the corrupt police department in the city Zimmerman lives, the questionable judges giving an assist and his relatives having all sorts of well placed connections.

[biostem]

So we educate people not to steal cars now? Does that work?

That's not my argument.

We do have such things as "Please be aware of your surroundings and do not leave your valuables unattended/exposed as there are pickpockets" warnings all over the place - and it's not for nothing that hotels have safes.

I mean, I am loathe to bring in crimes of lesser magnitude, but let's take computer security - you can "educate" people not to hack, but when there is a security breech and people's photos/data/credit card numbers whatevr are stolen, do we blame the hacker, or do we blame the poor security practices?

The point was that the amount of responsibility we put on rape victims is absurd and it just ignores the big picture. It's like telling a black kid to not carry skittles and iced tea around George Zimmerman. On the surface it looks sensible, but it doesn't say anything about the corrupt police department in the city Zimmerman lives, the questionable judges giving an assist and his relatives having all sorts of well placed connections.

Again, I have to disagree. There are a bunch of really messed up people in this world, and no amount of education is going to get them to stop doing screwed up things. You have to accept that it s not going to always be the case that you can pick them out before they act, so the best recourse is to reduce the situations that one may get into, which lead to the bad event, as possible.

Very few people are potential rapists, but many many people are potential victims. It is only logical to reach out to those who may find themselves in these situations, and give them the best resources to limit whatever negative encounters they may have.

Would you advocate walking into a bank with a ski mask on, even in the winter, and not taking it off upon entering said bank?

[General Zod]

Again, I have to disagree. There are a bunch of really messed up people in this world, and no amount of education is going to get them to stop doing screwed up things. You have to accept that it s not going to always be the case that you can pick them out before they act, so the best recourse is to reduce the situations that one may get into, which lead to the bad event, as possible.

Not seeing the disagreement here.

Very few people are potential rapists, but many many people are potential victims. It is only logical to reach out to those who may find themselves in these situations, and give them the best resources to limit whatever negative encounters they may have.

Then you just leave the date rape by someone the victim thought they could trust, or spousal rape, or family rape, which boils down to my point. Even if you manage to somehow train someone to eliminate all the stranger rape in the world, it doesn't do anything about the backlash a rape victim is going to get. I think that dealing with the stigma and the backlash is more important than trying to teach people how to not get raped.

[AniThyng]

Then you just leave the date rape by someone the victim thought they could trust, or spousal rape, or family rape, which boils down to my point. Even if you manage to somehow train someone to eliminate all the stranger rape in the world, it doesn't do anything about the backlash a rape victim is going to get. I think that dealing with the stigma and the backlash is more important than trying to teach people how to not get raped.

Could you elaborate on the proper way to address the stigma and backlash that is sensitive to the harm inflicted and the perceived magnitude of the crime?

[General Zod]

Then you just leave the date rape by someone the victim thought they could trust, or spousal rape, or family rape, which boils down to my point. Even if you manage to somehow train someone to eliminate all the stranger rape in the world, it doesn't do anything about the backlash a rape victim is going to get. I think that dealing with the stigma and the backlash is more important than trying to teach people how to not get raped.

Could you elaborate on the proper way to address the stigma and backlash that is sensitive to the harm inflicted and the perceived magnitude of the crime?

Could you elaborate on the proper way to identify a potential date rapist?

[AniThyng]

Then you just leave the date rape by someone the victim thought they could trust, or spousal rape, or family rape, which boils down to my point. Even if you manage to somehow train someone to eliminate all the stranger rape in the world, it doesn't do anything about the backlash a rape victim is going to get. I think that dealing with the stigma and the backlash is more important than trying to teach people how to not get raped.

Could you elaborate on the proper way to address the stigma and backlash that is sensitive to the harm inflicted and the perceived magnitude of the crime?

Could you elaborate on the proper way to identify a potential date rapist?

Notably, I am aware that doing this perfectly is an impossible task, because everyone is a potential date rapist, and the most successful are quite capable of presenting themselves as anything but a "stereotyped date rapist" as highlighted above by Simon and typified by people on reddit/r/theredpill.

Back to you.

[General Zod]

Notably, I am aware that doing this perfectly is an impossible task, because everyone is a potential date rapist, and the most successful are quite capable of presenting themselves as anything but a "stereotyped date rapist" as highlighted above by Simon and typified by people on reddit/r/theredpill.

Back to you.

I have no fucking clue, but I think if we're going to try and deal with rape, we should at least figure out where the biggest problem is first. As best as I can tell, that's not the fact that women don't know how to protect themselves against rapists. (Hint: they do.)

[biostem]

Again, I have to disagree. There are a bunch of really messed up people in this world, and no amount of education is going to get them to stop doing screwed up things. You have to accept that it s not going to always be the case that you can pick them out before they act, so the best recourse is to reduce the situations that one may get into, which lead to the bad event, as possible.

Not seeing the disagreement here.

Very few people are potential rapists, but many many people are potential victims. It is only logical to reach out to those who may find themselves in these situations, and give them the best resources to limit whatever negative encounters they may have.

Then you just leave the date rape by someone the victim thought they could trust, or spousal rape, or family rape, which boils down to my point. Even if you manage to somehow train someone to eliminate all the stranger rape in the world, it doesn't do anything about the backlash a rape victim is going to get. I think that dealing with the stigma and the backlash is more important than trying to teach people how to not get raped.

Yes, dealing with the stigma and victim-blaming are crucial components to this. At the same time, spousal, family, or other similar forms of familiar-person rape *can* be addressed via education and training. For one, (and I admit that it's no easy task), empowering the victim to get themselves out of the situation is vital. If this means going to the police or protective services, so be it. Bringing all relevant law enforcement agencies up to date with regards to this kind of stuff being criminal is obviously important as well.

While there is virtually nothing you can do in terms of family-rape, (as far as early detection goes), is it unreasonable to say that, if empowered with the proper education and training, a person might be able to notice warning signs before marrying someone who would commit spousal rape, or at least leave said person before it manifests?

[Simon_Jester]

To take such an informing and roll it up into a very tight summary, it might go like:

"Is this person chronically insensitive, moody, vindictive? Do they tend to bully others, get angry, get violent with people or with inanimate objects? Are they prone to obsession, especially with you? Are they prone to deny, ignore or deflect responsibility for their own bad actions, and try to pass off serious transgressions as "not their fault?" If so, this person might be a threat to you, and it would be wise to avoid them, or at least to avoid being in a position where you are vulnerable to them."

To some extent this is just plain good advice, for avoiding becoming the victim of any crime, I would think- spending time around insensitive, angry people who refuse to take responsibility for their actions is never going to end well.

But if research shows that many rapists fit this kind of personality profile, would it be reasonable to warn others about this, without in any way assuming they're somehow to blame if they end up the victim of a sexual assault?

No amount of warning or advice is going to help a 120lb girl overpower a 200lb quarterbacker. It's all about power, so I think if we started changing the narrative that being raped doesn't devalue a woman or make them any less of a person we'd see a bigger difference than bullshit tips about "don't walk alone in an alley at night".

The girl can't overpower the quarterback. But then, rape isn't all about male-on-female wrestling matches any more than it's about the stereotypical "random stranger jumps out of the bushes/dark alley and sexually assaults you."

The girl can't overpower the quarterback. She can, however, do things like try to avoid having long conversations in a secluded space with men who have shown a pattern of obsession with her. Like breaking off a relationship with a man who has serious anger management problems rather than risking becoming a target for those issues. Like identifying men who believe they have a 'right' to sex, and not getting into close social contact with those men if they can avoid it, because they are far more likely to commit rape when denied sex than a man with healthier attitudes would.

Many women already act in this way- in literal self defense, as a way to reduce the chances that they will end up getting raped. It is a damned, horrible shame that they need to, that they have to constantly walk around evaluating the risk that the men around them might be rapists. It is in no way a rape victim's fault for not doing these things constantly, and even remembering to do these things will not make a woman completely safe.

But... it reduces risk. To me, that's like buying insurance: people who buy insurance aren't morally superior to people who don't, but we still encourage people to do so out of prudence and a desire to avoid disaster. You are not morally or mentally inferior for not having insurance- but... seriously, you should probably have insurance if you can arrange for it.

The idea that we need to educate woman on how to not get raped really needs to die in a fire. We need to educate people to stop being fucking rapists.

I feel that educating men on "stop being fucking rapists" is the more morally necessary thing.

On the other hand, educating people, including women, on how to avoid criminally-inclined people (including rape-inclined men), may have a lot of payoffs, including reducing the number of rapes.

And the way I see it, anything that reduces the number of rapes, without reinforcing rape culture in a way that makes the experience of rape worse for the victims that do suffer it, is a good thing.

Responsibility lies firmly on the people who commit the crime. Figuring out respectful, intelligent advice to reduce others' risk of becoming victim is still a good thing.

That is different (as you have noted) the disrespectful, stupid advice that as a practical matter really exists more to shame and control women and make them feel as though only the somehow-inferior women get raped... and which as often as not really isn't very good advice on how to avoid rape.

The trick is that small changes in the way we handle subtle social details can play a role in changing how we handle larger issues.....

While I don't disagree with that, I find the problem is much more ingrained in western society's weird hang-ups about sex. I find it difficult tobelieve small things that would push one to rape, when we have major factors that perpetuate rape culture.

I'll ask you if there are any studies on it. I'd be happy to change opinions, I'm just skeptic.

It's more of a general thing, that subtle changes in the environment can cause disproportionate responses. Even in areas where we expect the problem to be something that is totally intractable and caused by deeper environmental issues.

For example, suicides tend to trigger other suicides, with 'suicide epidemics' being a real thing. Even though you would expect that each person's decision to commit suicide is strictly personal, it's undeniably influenced by outside factors.

Trying to stop suicides by telling people that dying is bad obviously isn't going to work, because basically everyone knows that dying is bad. Fear of death is about as instinctive as any human drive. So if we want to combat suicide epidemics, it is desirable to look at the details- how is this social epidemic transmitted through the population, can we cut some of the links that cause one suicide to result in others? It may not be immediately obvious how to do that, but doing it can still pay off.

When we talk about this in the context of rape we get the 'rape culture' debate. To what extent is rape caused by generic "men lusting after women?" And to what extent is rape caused by the fact that specific men, who exhibit specific behaviors, respond to specific situations in specific ways? Is the response perhaps a situational one? Perhaps a given man would never rape a stranger but would rape a woman he thinks of as 'his.' Perhaps he would commit rape under some circumstances but not others.

So in order to reduce the number of rapes, we try to analyze the issue and find things we can fix.

If we just say "it's because Westerners get hangups about sex," well, that may be an oversimplification, and even if it isn't it's a problem too large to fix. Changing a whole culture is impossible unless you have awfully good leverage. So in effect it's like shrugging off responsibility for fixing things... because it's a problem we can't take responsibility for.

But if we look at it in more detail, we see that the men who actually commit rapes are mostly ones who harbor certain attitudes toward women. Who behave in certain ways.

So we think of subtle ways in which we can alter the men's attitudes to encourage them to respect women at the less-conscious level, rather than despising them and treating them like property. We ensure that women are aware of what kind of attitudes and behaviors signal that a man might commit rape, to reduce the men's opportunities to do so. We do a host of little things, we discourage people from speaking in ways that reinforce pro-rape cultural messages, and we encourage them to speak in ways that undermine those pro-rape messages.

No one thing will end rape in this way, but every little bit helps... which is how you can go about changing a whole culture, one piece at a time.

What makes this "education" any different from generic self defense training? Why does it have to be tailored just for women with added junk that probably won't help?

I imagine that mostly it doesn't. On the other hand, the kind of stuff I've been talking about is less about violent confrontation and how to win it, and more about spotting social cues and resisting the urge toward wishful-thinking.

As to why you'd tailor any of this to involve rape specifically, well, rape is one of the very few crimes that is strongly tied up with sexuality and the sex drive. Since that's a powerful force in the human mind, it has a distorting effect. So "this guy is about to rob you" will be associated with certain danger signs, while "this guy is about to rape you" has different signs. Condescendingly explaining to women that they shouldn't walk into dark alleys is a perfect example of failure to recognize that. Because while a lot of muggings happen to people walking through shady, crime-infested areas and being attacked by criminal strangers... most rapes don't happen that way.

Avoiding crime-infested areas is great advice for not getting robbed, but lousy advice for not getting raped. Likewise, breaking off a relationship with someone who has anger management issues is a good defense against rape but does little to protect you against robberies..

Very few people are potential rapists, but many many people are potential victims. It is only logical to reach out to those who may find themselves in these situations, and give them the best resources to limit whatever negative encounters they may have.

Then you just leave the date rape by someone the victim thought they could trust, or spousal rape, or family rape, which boils down to my point. Even if you manage to somehow train someone to eliminate all the stranger rape in the world, it doesn't do anything about the backlash a rape victim is going to get. I think that dealing with the stigma and the backlash is more important than trying to teach people how to not get raped.

To me, any meaningful attempt to reduce the rape rate would revolve around helping them avoid the acquaintance rapes, the date rapes, and so far as possible the spousal and family rapes.

Obviously "don't walk through dark alleys" isn't useful advice. "Think carefully about who you can and cannot trust" is.

Notably, I am aware that doing this perfectly is an impossible task, because everyone is a potential date rapist, and the most successful are quite capable of presenting themselves as anything but a "stereotyped date rapist" as highlighted above by Simon and typified by people on reddit/r/theredpill.

True to a large extent- but even then, it is often possible for us to spot people who are trying to manipulate us into thinking they're good guys, as long as we take off the rose-tinted glasses. There's always some manipulative, date-raping psychopath who can slip under the radar, but it is better to have the radar than to not have it.

[General Zod]

But... it reduces risk. To me, that's like buying insurance: people who buy insurance aren't morally superior to people who don't, but we still encourage people to do so out of prudence and a desire to avoid disaster. You are not morally or mentally inferior for not having insurance- but... seriously, you should probably have insurance if you can arrange for it.

Does it? Buying insurance doesn't really reduce risk in most cases; it guarantees you won't be completely fucked if something goes tits up.

On the other hand, educating people, including women, on how to avoid criminally-inclined people (including rape-inclined men), may have a lot of payoffs, including reducing the number of rapes.

I think this runs the risk of creating stereotypes that a sociopath would eventually learn how to identify and take advantage of.

Responsibility lies firmly on the people who commit the crime. Figuring out respectful, intelligent advice to reduce others' risk of becoming victim is still a good thing.

That is different (as you have noted) the disrespectful, stupid advice that as a practical matter really exists more to shame and control women and make them feel as though only the somehow-inferior women get raped... and which as often as not really isn't very good advice on how to avoid rape.

I think it's safe to say that men probably aren't the best people to go around giving this sort of advice.

Trying to stop suicides by telling people that dying is bad obviously isn't going to work, because basically everyone knows that dying is bad. Fear of death is about as instinctive as any human drive. So if we want to combat suicide epidemics, it is desirable to look at the details- how is this social epidemic transmitted through the population, can we cut some of the links that cause one suicide to result in others? It may not be immediately obvious how to do that, but doing it can still pay off.

Studies have shown a direct correlation between people's ability to commit suicide and the suicide rate. Gun owners, for example, were far more likely to commit the act than non gun owners who otherwise thought about it. If you don't have immediate access to a means of following through you were less likely to do it. I think there's a vector for rape that a lot of people are overlooking by focusing on bullshit like identifying social tics and cues.

I imagine that mostly it doesn't. On the other hand, the kind of stuff I've been talking about is less about violent confrontation and how to win it, and more about spotting social cues and resisting the urge toward wishful-thinking.

Women are already better at spotting social cues than men in general, so I'm not sure I think we're in any position to tell them what to look for.

To me, any meaningful attempt to reduce the rape rate would revolve around helping them avoid the acquaintance rapes, the date rapes, and so far as possible the spousal and family rapes.

Obviously "don't walk through dark alleys" isn't useful advice. "Think carefully about who you can and cannot trust" is.

How are they supposed to avoid being rhoofied? Vigilantly hover over their drink the entire time and never take their hands off?

True to a large extent- but even then, it is often possible for us to spot people who are trying to manipulate us into thinking they're good guys, as long as we take off the rose-tinted glasses. There's always some manipulative, date-raping psychopath who can slip under the radar, but it is better to have the radar than to not have it.

[/quote]

Hilarious and more or less wrong.