Use of lethal force to defend your home.

[Perinquus]

A fighting retreat is still an option. Staying in a already burning house is a sure
way to die. Your house becomes a nice death trap if someone manages to set
it afire. You will die if you stay to fight. Your only chance is to flee your house and
shoot any attacker who gets in your way. This scenario is very flawed - you can
only save your house if you are able to ambush them atleast several hundred
meters before your house. The distance in the original or worse in your scenario
is a way to close.

It's not a sure way to die. It's possible. Not sure. Why do you persist in thinking of this mob as an unstoppable, implacable foe? It's a mob! I repeat, this is not trained infantry. They will not act like determined, trained soldiers. They will act like a disorganized, untrained rabble. This is a near certainty. I've served in a real army, and I've dealt with actual mobs, and once again, I am telling you from experience that you are sizing up the situation incorrectly.

Your house is a more defensible position than being out in the open is. You have more cover and concealment available to you there. You don't abandon this position until it becomes necessary. This is a tactical consideration quite separate from your house's value to you. And I repeat, YET AGAIN, your only chance is not to flee. You may succeed in driving them off. Once they have seen a couple of their men die, this undisciplined rabble is likely to break and run. They came for a bit of easy mayhem, not to be dead heroes.

[Vertigo1]

My first objective is to take out their ability to torch my home so I take out their gas cans and torches immediately. Then I warn them that any further attempts on my life or destruction of my property will result in use of deadly force. If they keep coming, their life is forfeit. I open fire and will not stop until they're either retreating or dead.

[Thunderfire]

It's not a sure way to die. It's possible. Not sure.

You are going to stay in a already burning house are you that
stupid? The starting distance is 100 yards in the oiriginal scenario
and your house is already under attack in your scenario. You get
30 seconds at best to stop them at a distance of just 100 yards.
How long will it take
1. to get your guns
2. to prepare yourself for defense.

most likely around 30 seconds or more. I think we can agree that
defending your house is futile if the attackers have already set it afire.

[Perinquus]

It's not a sure way to die. It's possible. Not sure.

You are going to stay in a already burning house are you that
stupid? The starting distance is 100 yards in the oiriginal scenario
and your house is already under attack in your scenario. You get
30 seconds at best to stop them at a distance of just 100 yards.
How long will it take
1. to get your guns
2. to prepare yourself for defense.

most likely around 30 seconds or more. I think we can agree that
defending your house is futile if the attackers have already set it afire.

The house isn't already burning at the start of the scenario you idiot. Your objective is to keep it that way, and it is an achievable objective if you handle the situation well.

You may have more than thirty seconds. It'll take them that long to cover the distance (they're not likely to be approaching at the run). They'll also stop to light their cocktails once they get there, since you can't light them too soon or they'll burn down before you're ready to throw, and blow up in your hand.

And it won't take me very long at all to get to my guns. I have a loaded shotgun and pistol in my bedroom. It wouldn't take me more than 5-10 seconds to put my hands on them from any part of the house. Even if you have kids in the house, there are good, secure gun safes on the market that allow you to store them quite securely, yet take no more than 5 seconds to open.

And here's something else to consider. It's very rare for people just to show up and burn your house down. If things have reached the point where you are in danger of that sort of thing, odds are you have been receiving threatening phone calls, threats in person, had your car vandalized, etc. There is usually quite a build up to a hate crime of this magnitude. If you're smart you'll have planned ahead, and this sort of thing won't catch you surprised and unprepared.

And even if they've snuck up on the house and scored a hit with a molotov cocktail before you knew they were there, it may still be possible for you to repel boarders, because you may be able to put the fire out before it can spread. That's what fire extinguishers are for. If you are smart, you'll have some of those too. You seem ready to give up without any kind of resistance, and run away at the first opportunity. Fuck that. If they want to burn my house down they'll pay a bill in blood for it.

[Thunderfire]

The house isn't already burning at the start of the scenario you idiot. Your objective is to keep it that way, and it is an achievable objective if you handle the situation well.

10 seconds to get to your gun safe
10 seconds to get them from the safe
10 seconds to take cover & fire

You can walk into throwing distance in less than 30 seconds.
Joe Average should be able to run 100 yards in 15 seconds.

About stoping the attackers before the fire can spread - forget it.
Plastics and other stuff will generate alot of poisionous smoke.
No chance to stop the fire without protective equipment.

[Perinquus]

10 seconds to get to your gun safe
10 seconds to get them from the safe
10 seconds to take cover & fire

You can walk into throwing distance in less than 30 seconds.
Joe Average should be able to run 100 yards in 15 seconds.

About stoping the attackers before the fire can spread - forget it.
Plastics and other stuff will generate alot of poisionous smoke.
No chance to stop the fire without protective equipment.

And of course you ignored everything I said about them having to light the fuzes, you being at least somewhat prepared beforehand, having a plan to deal with a situation such as this, etc. which will cut down on your response time.

And you are also taking it as read that the instant the molotov cocktail hits the house will be producing lethal volumes of toxic smoke. It takes just a little longer than that. You may still have time to put out the flames if you act fast. I know this because every time the fire department is called out to respond to a fire, we police officers have to respond as well. I am not entirely without experience of burning buildings.

So far you have positively bent over backwards to ascribe every conceivable advantage to the bad guys, and studiously ignored every factor that would work against them, and and done the exact opposite for yourself. I move you be granted the custom title "bravely brave Sir Robin".

[SPOOFE]

About stoping the attackers before the fire can spread - forget it.

I disagree. One shot and one dead mob member is all you need. Think "cows". Then think "stampede".

After that first gunshot, if these people are THAT determined to burn down your house, they're likely gonna KEEP hunting you down to kill you, anyway.

[Star-Blighter]

10 hoodlums with flamable materials = 10 corpses

I'll fire a warning shot afterwards.

[Thunderfire]

And of course you ignored everything I said about them having to light the fuzes, you being at least somewhat prepared beforehand, having a plan to deal with a situation such as this, etc. which will cut down on your response time.

The encounter distance will be far greater than 100 yards if I am prepared for
defense. 100 yards suggest partical or total suprise on the attackers side. Change
100 yards to 5 minutes advanced warning and defense becomes a good option.

Edit:

lighting the fuzes doesn't takes much time and is included in the 30 seconds.
About stopping the fire. I think should be asking a fire man. The time before
smoke become a problem is measured in seconds AFAIK.

[Thunderfire]

About stoping the attackers before the fire can spread - forget it.

I disagree. One shot and one dead mob member is all you need. Think "cows". Then think "stampede".

After that first gunshot, if these people are THAT determined to burn down your house, they're likely gonna KEEP hunting you down to kill you, anyway.

The attackers are fundies on foot. Not exactly the type of attackers that runs
aways after the first casualties.

[Perinquus]

The encounter distance will be far greater than 100 yards if I am prepared for
defense. 100 yards suggest partical or total suprise on the attackers side. Change
100 yards to 5 minutes advanced warning and defense becomes a good option.

That kind of distance is dependant on the terrain as well. And if you have planned ahead, you don't need five minutes. Even if you haven't planned ahead, your home is still defensible provided you have taken reasonable, general security precautions.

Edit:

lighting the fuzes doesn't takes much time and is included in the 30 seconds.
About stopping the fire. I think should be asking a fire man.

What difference will that make? I'm a police officer with prior military experience as an infantry squad leader. If there's one thing I am familiar with it's weapons and tactics. Yet you've discounted pretty much everything I've said. Why should I believe you'll defer to a fireman's expertise in his area of experience? You've shown no inclination to defer to me in mine.

The time before
smoke become a problem is measured in seconds AFAIK.

Which is all you need to activate a typical fire extinguisher. If you are determined, you can still function in a cloud of tear gas, which has a similar choking effect. I know, I've done it. Smoke would be a problem. But if you can put out the flames fast enough, it will not be present in quantities you are unable to cope with.

[Perinquus]

The attackers are fundies on foot. Not exactly the type of attackers that runs
aways after the first casualties.

Just as I said, you are determined to concede every possible advantage to the bad guys. As you would have it, they are grimly determined fanatics who will brave your fire, no matter how effective, and casually disregard any losses while swiftly surrounding your house and effectively returning your fire.

Well, as I recall, thei being fundies was not specified. And even if they are "fundies on foot" any mob is made up of a collection of individuals of varying types. The ringleader(s) may be the rabid fanatical type, but odds are most of them are followers - easily led, but not all that determined. And as I pointed out earlier, they are an untrained mob almost certainly acting without much of a plan, and they would have come for some easy mayhem, not to become dead heroes.

[Thunderfire]

What difference will that make? I'm a police officer with prior military experience as an infantry squad leader. If there's one thing I am familiar with it's weapons and tactics. Yet you've discounted pretty much everything I've said.

My military training is limited to basic infantry training. I have been told to
retreat when faced against bad odds. The average SDNet member lacks the
necessary skill to put up a skilled defense.

Glockman has later specified
1. attack range is 100 yards
2. the attackers are fundies on foot

bad odds if you ask me. I might get 2-4 of them before the others move
out of my line of sight. This leaves 6-8 fundies outside of my firing range.
6-8 fundies = atleast 6-8 molotov cocktails/torches that could be flying
though the windows of my house.

[Perinquus]

My military training is limited to basic infantry training. I have been told to
retreat when faced against bad odds.

Numbers are not the only factor affecting the situation. There are other things that greatly reduce the odds against you. Your attackers will be approaching your house in the open. Even if there are some trees and bushes and other things to provide cover and concealment, there will be some open ground they have to cover. They will thus be more exposed than you are. You may even be able to get off several shots before they can even tell which window you are firing out of. If they are attacking at night (likely) and you have the yard illuminated by floodlights, while the porch and interior lights are off, this will make it even harder for them to see where you are, and may even make it impossible. It will also illuminate them for you. There are likely to be a number of fainthearts in the group who will break as soon as it becomes clear that this is not the walkover they were expecting. They don't even have to be cowards for this the case, merely people of ordinary courage to whom burning you out does not matter as much as living to see the next day does.

You have weighted the odds entirely against the defender in your mind, and have not even tried to consider the factors working in the defender's favor.

The average SDNet member lacks the
necessary skill to put up a skilled defense.

This is not necessarily true. With enough forethought to the situation, even a person of average marksmanship ability can make the most of the defensive advantages in this scenario. It will not be necessary to kill every attacker. Merely make it clear that they will have to pay an unacceptably high price to get you, and they will almost certainly retreat.

Glockman has later specified
1. attack range is 100 yards
2. the attackers are fundies on foot

Fundies are not automatically fanatics. My mother's side of the family is shot through with fundamentalist Free Will Baptists. This does not make them ravening fanatics willing to die in order to strike the hated foe. You have assumed total, fanatical dedication on the part of every single one of the attackers, and there is nothing to support such an assumption.

bad odds if you ask me. I might get 2-4 of them before the others move out of my line of sight. This leaves 6-8 fundies outside of my firing range. 6-8 fundies = atleast 6-8 molotov cocktails/torches that could be flying though the windows of my house.

Again, you are taking it as a given that they can not be frightened off, and that despite their losses, they will press the attack without concern for their lives. Why? I have told you over and over and over and over that this is simply not typical mob behavior, and I have more experience dealing with mobs than you do. Is it possible they will still be determined enough to press the attack? Sure. But it's not likely. Given that this is a mob, and is not trained or disciplined, it is not likely at all. You insist on taking it as a certainty.

[Thunderfire]

Again, you are taking it as a given that they can not be frightened off, and that despite their losses, they will press the attack without concern for their lives. Why?

And you think they can always be frightened off. I want to be sure that
the attackers are nolonger a threat. Are you able to guarantee me that the
attackers will retreat if I kill 1-4 of them?

[Perinquus]

And you think they can always be frightened off.

Bullshit. I never said that. Go back and review my comments, and find for me where I said they would always be frightened off, or where I guaranteed that the defender would prevail.

I have claimed all along that your home is defensible, not that the defender was guaranteed to win. But then, you know this, and you are deliberately distorting my argument. Or if you do not know it, you have no excuse for not knowing - not when I have said things like:

Is it possible they will still be determined enough to press the attack? Sure. But it's not likely.Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2003 7:42 am

and

...it may still be possible for you to repel boarders... (italics added) Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2003 4:14 pm

and

It's not a sure way to die. It's possible. Not sure. Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 11:53 am

and

And I repeat, YET AGAIN, your only chance is not to flee. You may succeed in driving them off. (Italics added)Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 11:53 am

Dude, have the fucking integrity to debate me honestly. If there's one thing I can't stand it's people who deliberately misrepresent my arguments.

I want to be sure that
the attackers are nolonger a threat. Are you able to guarantee me that the
attackers will retreat if I kill 1-4 of them?

Don't be stupid. This is a ridiculous, childish demand. There are no guarantees in life, and once again, you know this. Gurantee me that you will escape if you flee and offer no defense. I concede, the scenario specified you had a guranteed way out, but as I have pointed out, that is a contrived, artificial stipulation. A person in a real situation such as this could have absolutely no way of knowing beforehand that there is a guaranteed means of escape, and would have to act based on his assessment of the situation at the time, using the almost certainly incomplete information available at that moment. In such a situation a person may decide that his chances are better if he fights, than if he offers no resistance and puts himself at the mob's mercy, or he may decide to accept a greater risk of death or injury because he is unwilling to let himself be victimized. You are placing a ridiculous and impossible demand on me, and if I can't meet it you are using it as an excuse to declare victory.

[Uraniun235]

The problem with the intent of the question (i.e. property rights vs. human life) is that it's an absurd scenario. If I see someone packing Molotovs and acting as though they're going to pitch one at my house (which I am presumably IN or NEAR) then I'm going to assume they've got a good chance of hurting me whether it's personal or not, and since burning to death isn't my preference, I'm going to do whatever it takes to prevent him from chucking fire at me.

Likewise, if someone breaks into my house and I'm inside, I WILL respond with deadly force if they prove uncooperative (i.e. not laying face down on the floor while I call the cops). Why?

Because not two months ago, a high-school dropout from the region (scary thing was, I went to elementary with the fucker) broke into someone's house, murdered a man and badly wounded his son. He didn't even know who he had murdered until afterward. Sorry, but some people DO commit murder when they break into someone's house. Hence, I'm not going to take the chance that you're an encyclopedia salesman posing as a burglar who wants to sell me encyclopedias. Granted, he might have only been after property, but that fucker should never have broken in in the first place. There's simply not an excuse for it.

But, if it's just property (especially shit covered by insurance) I won't do anything right then.

I'll just sue the fucker for all he's worth. Emotional damages, and all that. God Bless America!

[Tosho]

You may even be able to get off several shots before they can even tell which window you are firing out of.

This reminds me, I live in a small house, its size would easily allow me to fire from several different windows (at least until they get too close.) that relative to my house are "far away" from each other. In thoery this would allow me to make them think that several people were shooting at them, the fear of uncertainty would unerve many of them. Combine the fact that if they want an unobstructed aim for their Molotov coctails their going to have to throw from the part of my yard which offers about 8% cover.

[nechronius]

The warning shot is the freebie. If that don't work the rest will be delivered with terminal intensity.

You cannot predict to what level of violence the mob will escalate. You pretty much have to assume the worst.

[Jaded Masses]

I'd love to step out of then house and warn them, but I feel that would be taking to many chances on my life. I feel the other options are also dangerous. My actions would depend on wether or not I had family in the house. If I did I would be inclined to flee with them.If not I might start shooting. But then again, I have never been in a situation like this before and may be missing some important details, that would change my reactions.

[Crazy_Vasey]

I'd get the hell out of there. I've never so much as seen a real gun before, never mind actually fired one. I'd probably blow my own foot off if I tried to shoot it out.

Assuming I had the ability to shoot, then I open fire and kill as many of them as I can. I see no reason to not kill those who seem to want me nice and crispy for some reason. Never know, might make them break and run when a few of them drop down dead.

Then again, where I live, retreat wouldn't work. I live in an old terraced house that was built in the 19th century. There are only two exits and you'd have a hard time escaping a mob attacking this house.

[FOG3]

I wonder what the lawyer's would say if I shot one of the gas-cans. I mean doing that with a softpoint would turn it into a mist but it would be the torches they're carrying that would ignite it creating a rather nasty fireball. Especially if you claimed to "miss" with a warning shot doing so.

And yeah its misleading. Sounds like if you try to talk or reason with them you'd get a Molotov in the face for your trouble.

EDIT: Stupid mistake. Soft points for rifles hollow points are for pistols.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

There were some hollowpoints for rifles as well...

[Sea Skimmer]

There were some hollowpoints for rifles as well...

Hollowpoint ammo is wildly available for rifles.

[FOG3]

I realized the mistake less then five minutes after I posted the edit. Boat-tailed Hollow points are common and what made me realize my error. But what I had intended for the loading was 7.62x39 loaded with 110 grain softpoints. My mistake.