What's your opinion on Kevlar?

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Ok, let's back up a step or two.

Don't even try that shit on us. You know you can't win on this one so you're trying to double back and pull a moral victory out of this. We won't let you.

Pretend that BPVs are stolen and get in the hands of criminals more often than it's used to save the original owners life.

Is that a bad thing?

It is a hypothetical situation which does not apply to reality and thus will not be considered for inclusion into this debate.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

And if that knight has a 0.00367% chance of being shot, does it really matter?

Yes it does matter. To the knight.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Guess which one is easier to prevent? Guess which one requires a major lifestyle change and which one requires a Kevlar vest?

The heart-attack. If you drop your odds of having a heart attack from 50% to 49% it's more than 200 times greater than the maximum possible effect the Kelvar vest will have.

Maybe so, but heart attacks happen on a wider range of people. Which changes the dynamics of the situation. It's completely unrelated.

Maybe so, but nothing. It's the facts. Guns don't kill people, cheese burgers kill people. Stressing out over guns probably kills more people than guns kill people.

Remember, we're dealing with miniscule numbers here. More people get Tuberculosis than are shot. When was the last time you hear about Tuberculosis on the news?

You don't hear about tuberculosis on the news. You hear about shootings on the news.

And why is that? Is that cause guns kill more? Or is it cause guns make better TV. Could it just be that you've been fed a lie your whole life? You've got it pretty fucking sweet in the US, even at the worst of time. But the media is doing it's best to tell you otherwise.

You realize with the 'rash' of child kidnapping this summer that you guys had less child kidnappings that the summer before? And that was down from the summer before that.

Also, to bring up a poitn, do you realize how many kids could have been saved in the schools hottings had they been wearing vests?

Well, since the kids doing the shooting would probably have BPVs as well, round about none. It would have been harder to stop them, and they could have shot more. And they would have brought out their pipe bombs, but that's another debate.

[haas mark]

Mod! Please lock! No more need for discussion. CSS has locked himself in a trap.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Maybe so, but nothing. It's the facts. Guns don't kill people, cheese burgers kill people. Stressing out over guns probably kills more people than guns kill people.

You can't even be bothered to make any more sense, can you?

And why is that? Is that cause guns kill more? Or is it cause guns make better TV. Could it just be that you've been fed a lie your whole life? You've got it pretty fucking sweet in the US, even at the worst of time. But the media is doing it's best to tell you otherwise.

AD HOMINEM DETECTED!

Well, since the kids doing the shooting would probably have BPVs as well, round about none.

Non-issue. The kids would have been safer.

It would have been harder to stop them, and they could have shot more.

The hostages would have been safer with vest! Will you stop thinking about the criminals for one second and consider the absurdity of your remarks?

And they would have brought out their pipe bombs, but that's another debate.

Yes it is another debate, because this one ends here.

Lock it, moderators. This shit has gone far enough.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Not many criminals with "Real combat experience out there" and those that have been in gunfighters are those most likely to run away rather then bother fighting it out. Why? Because it's simply not worth it. They can find another person to rob easier then they can find a new kidney. Thats what experiance teaches.

Your average gun owner is far more likely to be familiar with there weapon, which likely cost them quite a bit as well, then some punk who bought a .22 for 135 dollars, has never been to a range in his life and will dump it as soon as they can.

More criminals will have been in gunfights than their victims. That's pretty much what makes them criminals.

Cite.

How many people do you know that have been shot at, twice.

That have to be greater than the number of repeat offenders.

Think about it.

Ummm....you lost me somewhere in that circular logic of yours...

People don't deal with life of death situation very well, unless they've been trained to ignore their fight or flight instinct of act rationally.

No, they're not going to pop up. But the victim will, if they have a Kevlar vest on.

COncession Accepted, for about the seventh time.

NO THEY WON'T! Kevlar vest's don't make you bullet proof, you still deal with all the KE of the bullet. That will break ribs, could cause internal bleeding, etc.

If you get hit in the chest you won't pop back up, you'll say, 'Fuck that hurt.' and hope he shoots someone else.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

How old are you? Have you been shot yet? Do you have brothers and / or sisters? How old are they? Have they been shot?

See a pattern?

[haas mark]

More criminals will have been in gunfights than their victims. That's pretty much what makes them criminals.

Cite.

How many people do you know that have been shot at, twice.

That have to be greater than the number of repeat offenders.

Think about it.

Think about what? That repeat offenders are out there more than you think they are?

Anywho, while most pick easy targets, others learn to shoot first. And it's that limited situation I'm talking about. Some here think they'll drop, roll and come up shooting like some computer geek James Bond.

Ummm....you lost me somewhere in that circular logic of yours...

People don't deal with life of death situation very well, unless they've been trained to ignore their fight or flight instinct of act rationally.

Maybe not well, but they DO deal with it. In other ways than crapping their pants. Do you do anyhting beside backdate?

That simply aint going to happen.

No, they're not going to pop up. But the victim will, if they have a Kevlar vest on.

COncession Accepted, for about the seventh time.

NO THEY WON'T! Kevlar vest's don't make you bullet proof, you still deal with all the KE of the bullet. That will break ribs, could cause internal bleeding, etc.

If you get hit in the chest you won't pop back up, you'll say, 'Fuck that hurt.' and hope he shoots someone else.

But on the upside, (A) You won't immediately die, and (B) YOu have enbough time to seek medical attention.

Concession Accepted.

Lock this thread.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

You guys need to read a book called:

Culture of Fear: Are Americans Afraid of the Wrong Things?

Maybe after you read it you'll realize life isn't half as cruel as you seem to think it is.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

How many people do you know that have been shot at, twice.
That have to be greater than the number of repeat offenders.
Think about it.

Then it isn't the fault of the vests it's the fault of the LAW! STAY ON TOPIC!

People don't deal with life of death situation very well, unless they've been trained to ignore their fight or flight instinct of act rationally.

Flight is a valid response, and a good one if you cannot eliminate your opponent.

NO THEY WON'T! Kevlar vest's don't make you bullet proof, you still deal with all the KE of the bullet. That will break ribs, could cause internal bleeding, etc.

If you get hit in the chest you won't pop back up, you'll say, 'Fuck that hurt.' and hope he shoots someone else.

But they won't die. That's the point! How many crims care about making sure their adversary is dead? Answer: not many. Thus a vest WILL save you from death in most circumstances.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Numbers do not suffice as a reason. When you come up with some hard evidence that BPVs will, in fact, be stolen at the same rate as guns, then maybe someone will believe you. But until you come up with an answer that is not numbers, then we will be forced to ground you into a whiny pulp.

No, you come up with one convincing reason why a criminal wouldn't want a BPV. They get shot at more than you, and you want one so bad.

Argue your way out of that one.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

You guys need to read a book called:

Culture of Fear: Are Americans Afraid of the Wrong Things?

Maybe after you read it you'll realize life isn't half as cruel as you seem to think it is.

And you need a reality check.

Now fuck off.

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

No, you come up with one convincing reason why a criminal wouldn't want a BPV. They get shot at more than you, and you want one so bad.

Argue your way out of that one.

They're troublesome to steal.
Next.

[haas mark]

Numbers do not suffice as a reason. When you come up with some hard evidence that BPVs will, in fact, be stolen at the same rate as guns, then maybe someone will believe you. But until you come up with an answer that is not numbers, then we will be forced to ground you into a whiny pulp.

No, you come up with one convincing reason why a criminal wouldn't want a BPV. They get shot at more than you, and you want one so bad.

Argue your way out of that one.

They get shot at more than I, but I fear for my own safety as well. I think that was pretty simple, don't you?

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Then where the fuck do all the stories in the NRA's Armed Citizen Column
Come from?

It's ancedotal evidence. It comes from ancedotes.

Cite the anecdotes.

GOD FUCKING DAMN!

Are you not even reading the arguement anymore? MKSheppard's evidence is ancedotal. Make him cite it, them tell him to shove it, cause ancedotal evidence is worthless.

Fucking retard.

[haas mark]

You guys need to read a book called:

Culture of Fear: Are Americans Afraid of the Wrong Things?

Maybe after you read it you'll realize life isn't half as cruel as you seem to think it is.

Maybe after you live my life, you'll realize life is a helluva lot crueler than you think it is.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

I think your implications were enough.

Nope, just a retarded strawman.

Has the fact that a Vest is massively larger factored into your little delusion yet?

There also wearable. Break into someone house, find the BPV, put it on, leave. Very little encombrance and doesn't take up any room in your big bag of loot.

Why would it be left at home, if it is such a little encumbrance? Plus, you have to add in the safety factor.[/quote]

You going to wear a BPV everywhere? I don't think so. If you do, they're going to get a little rank. In which case you'll need more than one when the other is getting cleaned. Can you wash kevlar, or does it need dry-cleaning?

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Nope, just a retarded strawman.

Which is what all your replies and "arguments" have been.

You going to wear a BPV everywhere? I don't think so. If you do, they're going to get a little rank. In which case you'll need more than one when the other is getting cleaned. Can you wash kevlar, or does it need dry-cleaning?

And while that is happening it won't get stolen. I can imagine your fantasies revolve around people sticking up laundry shops for BPVs.

On second though I don't want to put myself in your frame of mind. Idiocy is contagious.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Says you. But we're not talking about guns, were talking about BPVs. Better to have one of those (safe) than get shot in the heart without one (sorry).

1000 times more likely that it will get stolen then it will save your live.

CITE IT FUCKER. Oh, wait, you can't....you admitted that. Which makes your "evidence" falsifiable.

Being falisfiable is a good thing.

I've given my reasons for those conclusions. All counter arguements have centered around the criminals inability or unwillingness to steal and use BPV.

Strange considering they have been used in crimes before.

And if the criminal is wearing someone else's BPV he stole?

Aim for the head.

BLAM! You're dead. You see, the criminal shot you in the head first, cause that's what they do. They shot first, that's what makes them criminals.

And don't tell me how I will/will not react either, because YOU DONT KNOW.

And you do? How do you know?

[haas mark]

I think your implications were enough.

Nope, just a retarded strawman.

On your part.

There also wearable. Break into someone house, find the BPV, put it on, leave. Very little encombrance and doesn't take up any room in your big bag of loot.

Why would it be left at home, if it is such a little encumbrance? Plus, you have to add in the safety factor.

You going to wear a BPV everywhere? I don't think so. If you do, they're going to get a little rank. In which case you'll need more than one when the other is getting cleaned. Can you wash kevlar, or does it need dry-cleaning?

Easy enough. You keep the Kevlar vest in the house if you wash it at home, but you can also take it to a dry-cleaners. Either place is safe. How many times have you heard of a dry-cleaner being robbed?

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Being falisfiable is a good thing.

I've given my reasons for those conclusions. All counter arguements have centered around the criminals inability or unwillingness to steal and use BPV.

Strange considering they have been used in crimes before.

Doesn't mean they will always be used in crimes. False generalization.

BLAM! You're dead. You see, the criminal shot you in the head first, cause that's what they do. They shot first, that's what makes them criminals.

BLAM! You just shot yourself in the foot. Crims almost never aim for the ehad, and when they do nine out of ten they aim high or miss.

And you do? How do you know?

BECAUSE HE'S VERILON! GET THAT IN YOUR HEAD NUMBSKULL!

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Percent of guns bought each year that are stolen. 3.896%
Percent change of the average Joe getting shot and killed: 0.00367%

Statistics. Kindly translate into argument or shut the fuck up.

You need that explained to you? That's sad.

I don't think I know words small enough if you can't see that one number is vastly higher than the other.

If BPV as stolen at the same rate as guns, and I see no logical reason to doubt that, number of BPV stolen per oppurtunity to save a live: 1000+

Assumption of CSS-wannabe: BPV stolen at same rate as guns.
INCORRECT! Guns are easier to steal than BPVs. Logic dictates that one would steal something directly helpful over something that is indirectly helpful, given that all other factors are equal.

.... BPV won't help criminals. ....

Retard. That's pretty much all that needs to be said.

Therefore guns will be stolen at a much higher rate than BPVs,

1000 times higher?

You don't need a BPV.

No I don't, because I live in a country where guns are not needed. But I would have one if I lived in a rough neighbourhood. Please refrain from overgeneralizing.

Children in Israel don't need BPV.

Criminals would love to steal yours. That's the basics, and it seems to be backed up by the data we have.

Oooh, Mr. Perp would steal my vest over my valuables! Mr. Perp wants to protect himself at the risk of being caught BEFORE the vest can be of any help! Mr. Perp is as stupid as CSS-wannabe is!

I hope criminals are as dumb as you think they are.

[haas mark]

1000 times more likely that it will get stolen then it will save your live.

CITE IT FUCKER. Oh, wait, you can't....you admitted that. Which makes your "evidence" falsifiable.

Being falisfiable is a good thing.

I've given my reasons for those conclusions. All counter arguements have centered around the criminals inability or unwillingness to steal and use BPV.

Strange considering they have been used in crimes before.

Strange that you have reasons, but no evidence.

Aim for the head.

BLAM! You're dead. You see, the criminal shot you in the head first, cause that's what they do. They shot first, that's what makes them criminals.

And don't tell me how I will/will not react either, because YOU DONT KNOW.

And you do? How do you know?

Ummm....becasue I know how I will react? I can't say how you will react, but I can damn sure tell you how I will react.

[C.S.Strowbridge]

I've lived in suburbs my entire life. I know quite a bit more than you do, I assure you. Did you go to a nice public school as a kid, or a shitty one or ten as I did?

Give me some fucking numbers. I'm tired of the ancedotal bullshit.

Am I the only one here with the balls to give statistics?

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

You need that explained to you? That's sad.

I don't think I know words small enough if you can't see that one number is vastly higher than the other.

And one number being higher than the other is the basis of your argument? Pathetic.

Next.

Children in Israel don't need BPV.

Their parents are smart enough to keep them indoors.

And this is still a RED HERRING.

Next.

I hope criminals are as dumb as you think they are.

I hope so too. But I hope you're not as dumb as I think. That would make you a disgrace to nature.