Bible bashing in the media

[Warspite]

There are no independent records of the exodus. However, fundies try to argue this away by pointing out that the Egyptians never keep records of their failure. [...]

I've known a few documentaries (BBC's Horizon springs to mind), where they talk about the Egiptyan civilization and try to find clues about the Exodus.
One of the arguments about this "inflation" of Hebrews is the lack of written records, due to the fact the Egiptyans were extremely burocratic, they kept records of everything, after all they had specialized scribes, right? I'm surely a few thousand Hebrews leaving Egipt suddendly would be registered somewhere...

[neoolong]

There are no independent records of the exodus. However, fundies try to argue this away by pointing out that the Egyptians never keep records of their failure. [...]

I've known a few documentaries (BBC's Horizon springs to mind), where they talk about the Egiptyan civilization and try to find clues about the Exodus.
One of the arguments about this "inflation" of Hebrews is the lack of written records, due to the fact the Egiptyans were extremely burocratic, they kept records of everything, after all they had specialized scribes, right? I'm surely a few thousand Hebrews leaving Egipt suddendly would be registered somewhere...

You'd think that there would at least be a record of so many dead somewhere. Like a record at the Egyptian morgue. Or the funeral homes. Or some guy mentioning that he should have been paid overtime for having to dig so many damn graves.

[Stormbringer]

There are no independent records of the exodus. However, fundies try to argue this away by pointing out that the Egyptians never keep records of their failure. [...]

I've known a few documentaries (BBC's Horizon springs to mind), where they talk about the Egiptyan civilization and try to find clues about the Exodus.
One of the arguments about this "inflation" of Hebrews is the lack of written records, due to the fact the Egiptyans were extremely burocratic, they kept records of everything, after all they had specialized scribes, right? I'm surely a few thousand Hebrews leaving Egipt suddendly would be registered somewhere...

You'd think that there would at least be a record of so many dead somewhere. Like a record at the Egyptian morgue. Or the funeral homes. Or some guy mentioning that he should have been paid overtime for having to dig so many damn graves.

You're absolutely right. With a catastrophe of that magnitude there would be something. Thousands don't die like that with nothing left as evidence. It doesn't happen.

[Darth Wong]

It is most likely a gigantic exaggeration of some relatively trivial event. The fact that they would brag about it, however, indicates the kind of people they were.

[Warspite]

It is most likely a gigantic exaggeration of some relatively trivial event. The fact that they would brag about it, however, indicates the kind of people they were.

True, and of course, it was an act of God, since there wasn't another explanation... People haven't changed in over 4 millenia...

[kojikun]

there have been some pretty damn good rationalisations of the 10 plagues. the events are event interconnected. everything from the rivers of blood to the frogs to the kids dying to the parting the red sea were interconnected. they supposedly were caused by local ecosphere disturbance caused by the eruption of thera or whatever that islands called.

[The Dark]

It is most likely a gigantic exaggeration of some relatively trivial event. The fact that they would brag about it, however, indicates the kind of people they were.

Oh, yes, and King Arhtur smote the Saxons with 100 knights . Every civilization has its exaggerated stories. The Hebrew ones are among the most exaggerated, but we don't have many stories from that era to compare them to (the enuma elish is the only that comes to mind). For all we know, they were quite understated for national mythology of the time.

[AdmiralKanos]

It is most likely a gigantic exaggeration of some relatively trivial event. The fact that they would brag about it, however, indicates the kind of people they were.

Oh, yes, and King Arhtur smote the Saxons with 100 knights . Every civilization has its exaggerated stories. The Hebrew ones are among the most exaggerated, but we don't have many stories from that era to compare them to (the enuma elish is the only that comes to mind). For all we know, they were quite understated for national mythology of the time.

Still no excuse to continue bragging about it to this day. The glorious Exodus and terrorism inflicted on the Egyptians are still taught to children in Sunday School to this day as the literal acts of a "perfect" and "righteous" God. You can post as many icons as you like, but you won't change the fact that glorification of infanticide is morally despicable.

[HemlockGrey]

Ah, Mike, I think the icon was directed at Arthurian mythology, not you.

[Mr Flibble]

I'm jumping in a little bit late here, as the thread has moved on but I'll comment on the original point anyway

I just watched an episode of SG:1 last week where they go to a world which has mideval European Christian, and teal'k comments on how no Goa'uld could display the benevolence and generosity that the bible does, even though there's a lot more violence in it. So, I'm wonder why they decided to give the bible a pat on the back like this, why are they too chickenshit to expose it for what it really is?

If you want to see a show that has an atheistic bent to it, and often questions religion I would recommend you watch Red Dwarf.Despite it being a comedy series, I think it does look at many issues, when you wathc the episodes carefully. The main character is described as "the ultimate atheist" but is also portrayed as having a strong sense of morality. There are three episodes which are specifically aimed at examining religionand god etc. They are Waiting for God, in which the story is about the cat religion, where all the main characters state that religion or deities are "preposterous". The episode ends with Lister lying to a cat priest to comfort him, the priest dies at the end, I think this is trying to show that there is a positive side to religion, that it can provide comfort in this scary universe. In The Last Day the episode examines death, particularly how one faces death. It is the episode where the quote in my sig comes from. It tries to show again that one positive role of religion is to bring comfort, but if religion is used in a restricive manner (like fundamentalists) the comfort it brings is lost by the harm that it causes. I particularly like Rimmers story about his parents taking everything in the bible literally, but their copy having a misprint and so they become "Seventh day advent hoppist" it is a scene every biblical literalist should be shown. The third episode is The Inquisitor tackles the ultimate question, what is the meaning of life? The whole premise of the episode is an android which has lived to the end of time and found that there is no God, and then decides to go back and judge people to see if they have lived a worthwhile life, making it a sort of judge deity. The characters actually erase this android from history all together, thus removing all forces influencing 'the purpose of life'. It implies that we find our own meaning to life, and also that there is no judge to force us into any particular form of a reality. In a sense in this episode god is tricked by man into killing himself, as we don't need a god to judge us. There are other references to religion, god etc throughout the series, but these episodes are the ones which stand out in my mind.

[Darth Wong]

Ah yes, but Red Dwarf is a British show. Europe is not held as tightly in the grip of fundie idiots as the United States is.

[Mr Flibble]

Ah yes, but Red Dwarf is a British show. Europe is not held as tightly in the grip of fundie idiots as the United States is.

Yes, that is part of why I tend to stick to British televison over American (Australian TV is just crap). It is still rare to find shows that are as openly atheist as Red Dwarf though.

[Lagmonster]

There are no independent records of the exodus. However, fundies try to argue this away by pointing out that the Egyptians never keep records of their failure. [...]

I've known a few documentaries (BBC's Horizon springs to mind), where they talk about the Egiptyan civilization and try to find clues about the Exodus. One of the arguments about this "inflation" of Hebrews is the lack of written records, due to the fact the Egiptyans were extremely burocratic, they kept records of everything, after all they had specialized scribes, right? I'm surely a few thousand Hebrews leaving Egipt suddendly would be registered somewhere...

The Egyptians were stern records-keepers when it came to economics, yes. At that time, however, the Hebrews likely made up a relatively small number of the slave population of Egypt. I believe that it is entirely possible that an army of slaves could have escaped from Egypt without real mention, and might have even ducked out or avoided a patrol sent to retrieve them (I, for one, think that the Bible would have been a very short book indeed if Pharaoh had really 'sent all his armies' after the Hebrews).

I don't think that it needed to be vast multitudes of slaves escaping either. By their own accounts, it took them almost two generations to build up an army capable of defeating the population of the then-crumbling structure at Jericho alone, let alone make any real headway into Canaan.

[Peregrin Toker]

Oh, wait, the Khmer Rouge have never attempted to annihilate all life on earth. It's not easy to find evil that rivals that of the Old Testament, is it??

Perhaps Grand Moff Tarkin. Although in the scale of the SW galaxy, that was more proportionate to the destruction of a single city by our standards, as opposed to virtual genocide of the entire human species.

I meant real-life evil.

[Steve]

Well, I'll be honest, I liked the Prince of Egypt. Moreso than I liked The Ten Commandments (which, I admit, is noteworthy mostly for the SFX and because I liked the character of Seti).

In the latter move, Moses and Ramses are portrayed as complete rivals, they despise each other, and Moses characteristically shows no guilt for what's going on. Granted, Heston played the character well, and I do like him as an actor, but the portrayal was completely loyal to "accepted" vision; namely, Moses bringing the plagues without question or regret.

In the former, Moses and Ramses were raised as brothers and very fond of each other, and Moses shows tremendous guilt over what's happening to Egypt.

And, I'll note, both movies make no mention of God hardening Pharoah's heart. Other plot devices do so (Nefertiri in TTC and the memory of Ramses' father in TPoE). That I find interesting.

[Darth Wong]

In "Prince of Egypt", Moses avoids responsibility by saying it's God, and he's just the messenger. At no point does anyone condemn God for this. If God murdered a million children for you, would you still praise him? Moses does.

[Coaan]

As with all myths and legends, the more it is spoken of the more it will warp...if every man that speaks of a legend makes it sound just a little bit more grand than it really was....then by the time 100 men have spoken it...'twill be way out of proportion..

[Arrow]

I'm also jumping in late, but lets consider the fear aspect of religion. If you got a textbook saying that if you don't behave like a good Christian all of these things will happen to you, and it 'cities' examples, the safe money says that you'll do what the book or church leaders say. Especially if you lack education.

Contemperary example: The Japanese feared US Marines so much that they told their people that for someone to become a US Marine they had to kill their family. I believe they also said the Marines would rape women and child (ironical, the Japanese did this the most). Since the Japanese people relied solely on their government for information (and questioning that information was to risk death from the ultranationists), this lie was widely believed by the population. The end result being that Japanese civilians tossed themselves off of cliffs when the Marines took Okinawa.

An even better example is that the Japanese soldier feared dishonor (or his fellows) so much that he wouldn't surrender in the face of hopeless odds.

I think the bible (specifical the OT) is more about promoting fear to control the populace than to promote good morals.

[AdmiralKanos]

Contemperary example: The Japanese feared US Marines so much that they told their people that for someone to become a US Marine they had to kill their family. I believe they also said the Marines would rape women and child (ironical, the Japanese did this the most). Since the Japanese people relied solely on their government for information (and questioning that information was to risk death from the ultranationists), this lie was widely believed by the population. The end result being that Japanese civilians tossed themselves off of cliffs when the Marines took Okinawa.

Actually, most of them went and hid in caves, where they were burned alive by US soldiers with flamethrowers (not exactly disproof of the Japanese anti-American propaganda). Small child-sized skulls can be found in Okinawan caves to this day. A small number either threw themselves off the cliffs or were forced off by bayonet-wielding soldiers, and of course, those are the ones who the Americans talked about exclusively.

An even better example is that the Japanese soldier feared dishonor (or his fellows) so much that he wouldn't surrender in the face of hopeless odds.

Actually, did you know that more kamikaze pilots died trying to ditch their planes in the ocean or turn around and land than hit enemy ships? That's why they trained them on how to take off but not how to land.

I think the bible (specifical the OT) is more about promoting fear to control the populace than to promote good morals.

Of course. As Cicero said in ancient Rome, religion is a useful tool for social control. The fear of divine retribution keeps the sheep in line.

[Arrow]

Actually, did you know that more kamikaze pilots died trying to ditch their planes in the ocean or turn around and land than hit enemy ships? That's why they trained them on how to take off but not how to land.

That I didn't know. Still, the Army troops would keep on fighting or try to hide out in the jungle. Very few Japanese troops were captured.

Of course. As Cicero said in ancient Rome, religion is a useful tool for social control. The fear of divine retribution keeps the sheep in line.

Cicero? Same guy that said in all of his speechs "I think Carthage must be destroyed?" If so, I'm not the least bit surprised.

[NapoleonGH]

Cicero saying stuff about carthage? Carthage had been destroyed at the end of the 3rd punic war before Cicero was born.

[Majin Gojira]

Religion on Buffy and Angel: a small sign of light in a genericly dark area:

Buffy: Do I like shrubs?
Xander: That's between you and your god.
(What's My Line 1)


Buffy: Note to self: religion: freaky.
(What's My Line 1)

Buffy: What are you doing for Christmas?
Willow: Being Jewish. Remember, people? Not everybody worships Santa.
(Amends)


Girl: Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal savior?
Buffy: Uh, you know I meant to and then I just got really busy.
(The Freshman)

Cordelia: Its disciples are human, they're killing each other. I think the fight is over how to worship it.
Angel: This is why personally I rarely go to church... I thought it was funny.
(Dear Boy)

Wesley: The shroud was woven by the head priest, said to have been driven mad by the demon himself. Once Rahmon was defeated the priest dyed the shroud with the blood of seven virgin women sacrificed on the first full moon. Then laid it upon Rahmon's body in order to prevent his resurrection.
Cordelia: Why is it always virgin women who have to do the sacrificing?
Wesley: For purity, I suppose.
Cordelia: This has nothing to do with purity. This is all about dominance, buddy. You can bet if someone ordered a male body part for religious sacrifice the world would be atheist like that.
(The Shroud of Rahmon)

Thought It'd garner a few laughs, specially the last one.

[Durandal]

There's also a Season 7 episode where Buffy is fighting a vampire she went to high school with, and he asks her what the word is on God's existence. She says something like, "Nothing solid."

[Steve]

In "Prince of Egypt", Moses avoids responsibility by saying it's God, and he's just the messenger. At no point does anyone condemn God for this. If God murdered a million children for you, would you still praise him? Moses does.

Oh, I'm not saying it's still not slanted toward the Judeo-Christian view. But I still prefer the Prince of Egypt version better than the Ten Commandments one. At least he seems capable of remorse and guilt.

And I think by this time, well, seeing what's God done to the Egyptians, while it's easy to talk macho and be defiant, I think in the face of such undefiable power even the strongest-willed humans would submit since the alternative is unacceptable (since we are using suspension of disbelief here).

[Darth Wong]

In "Prince of Egypt", Moses avoids responsibility by saying it's God, and he's just the messenger. At no point does anyone condemn God for this. If God murdered a million children for you, would you still praise him? Moses does.

Oh, I'm not saying it's still not slanted toward the Judeo-Christian view. But I still prefer the Prince of Egypt version better than the Ten Commandments one. At least he seems capable of remorse and guilt.

I don't think so. He does not accept any responsibility for what happened, nor does he concede that it's unspeakably evil. He seems to see it as some sort of tragedy which was brought about by Pharoah. In fact, he even says as much, effectively blaming the victim of terrorism for inciting the terrorist. The sadness of the murderer who blames his victim for setting him off is not what I would call remorse.

And I think by this time, well, seeing what's God done to the Egyptians, while it's easy to talk macho and be defiant, I think in the face of such undefiable power even the strongest-willed humans would submit since the alternative is unacceptable (since we are using suspension of disbelief here).

Of course. Terrorism is a highly effective way to effect change if you have the power to back it up. Very positive lesson that those old stories teach us