Atheism and miracles?

[Eris]

I would turn this one around, actually. If we accept miraculous happenings as the work of divine interference, isn't God a right bastard for picking and choosing who gets blessings? Here's a good treatment of that very problem, using real world examples no less. Miracles, I think, a bigger problem than the theist than the atheist. We can just point to what I like to call fortuitous serendipity. Because frankly I like how that sounds.

[Justforfun000]

Cancer suddenly going into remission or no one managing to die on a boat aren't miracles, or necessarily even that unlikely.

However sometimes remissions are miraculous in the sense of how unlikely they are. A personal friend of the family had severe cancer back in the 80's and she was down to a couple of months to live. It was lymphoma and it was literally ALL through her. All of a sudden, it was just gone. Doctor's couldn't explain it. The only two things she said she did out of the ordinary (besides the chemo and radiation), was to take that dietary supplement Maatol which she takes to this day, and meditation where she kept imaging little pac men gobbling up her cancer cells. Personally I would say that last mental trick was mainly responsible for the cure, but of course we'll never know.

She's been cancer free for over two decades which in itself is damn near miraculous. Most people who get a remission, or a "cure", still end up with it again within a 5 to 10 year period.

Now while I doubt this was a "God" miracle at work, it can qualify for the title in the general sense. There was no logical reason medical science would know of that should have been able to completely reverse the cancer at that stage of the game. You're normally completely fucked at that point.

[Superman]

'Miracles' are a religious concept. Atheists are not religious. That's like asking an atheist, 'what about evil?' 'Evil' as a concept is not a problem for us.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

'Miracles' are a religious concept. Atheists are not religious. That's like asking an atheist, 'what about evil?' 'Evil' as a concept is not a problem for us.

Atheists don't believe in theism, i.e., in deities or a deity. That says nothing about their religious practice. You're confusing the two.

Evil can easily be a concept for atheists, furthermore, as absolute moral values are not linked to deities, something at Kant logically demonstrated rather more than two hundred years ago.

[Eris]

'Miracles' are a religious concept. Atheists are not religious. That's like asking an atheist, 'what about evil?' 'Evil' as a concept is not a problem for us.

Atheists don't believe in theism, i.e., in deities or a deity. That says nothing about their religious practice. You're confusing the two.

Evil can easily be a concept for atheists, furthermore, as absolute moral values are not linked to deities, something at Kant logically demonstrated rather more than two hundred years ago.

True, but I think there still is a good point Superman is making. Let's say for sake of argument that we're all atheists and accept a universal and objective absolute standard of morality - Kantian deontology or what have you. Even if we accept then that we have evil in the world, that evil is not going to be a problem for us like it is the theist.

For us in our purely naturalistic world evil simply is. Some people happen to behave in ways that are classified as evil under our moral code. This is undesirable bot not inherently problematic at a theoretical level, just a practical one (how do we get everyone to be good people?). However, for a religious person positing an all-powerful and morally good deity, then it becomes not a practical problem, but a theoretical problem of how could there be evil in the first place? Evil is not a problem for any atheist except in a practical sense of how are we going to mitigate evil in the world. For the theist it's an argument showing that their God is either powerless, or wicked. That's problematic.

[Gil Hamilton]

Atheists don't believe in theism, i.e., in deities or a deity. That says nothing about their religious practice. You're confusing the two.

Evil can easily be a concept for atheists, furthermore, as absolute moral values are not linked to deities, something at Kant logically demonstrated rather more than two hundred years ago.

If you want an example of this, you don't have to look any further than Buddhism. The Buddhas original draft of his religion is loaded with spirituality and ritual and beliefs, but it is entirely atheistic. God or Gods were discounted as a REALLY immoderate concept. Later generations of Buddhist sects often tacked on alot of gods or demons (the same thing really), such as Japanese Buddhists, but there is a distinct flavor of Buddhism that is entirely without Gods.

[Superman]

Evil can easily be a concept for atheists, furthermore, as absolute moral values are not linked to deities, something at Kant logically demonstrated rather more than two hundred years ago.

I confused 'atheist' with 'naturalist,' it seems.

An operational definition for 'evil' is probably something that doesn't exist. For the rationalist, 'evil' is an hypothetical construct, and a broad one at that.

[Darth Wong]

Atheists might subscribe to the concept of "evil" in the sense that some actions are so immoral that they should gain the label, but that's not really the same thing as the Judeo-Christian concept of good and evil, where all of reality is divided up into two warring sides and you have to pick one.

That "two warring sides" mentality is why it's so easy for Christian fundamentalists to exaggerate dislikes and disagreements into outright hatreds. For example, let's be honest: most straight guys dislike "gay culture", regardless of whether they're religious. They dislike it for the same reason they dislike the Backstreet Boys or Ricky Martin; it's a subjective thing. But the Christians take that dislike and turn it into outright hatred because they think everything has to be judged as either "good" or "evil", and gay culture isn't "good", so it must be "evil"!

[Singular Intellect]

For example, let's be honest: most straight guys dislike "gay culture", regardless of whether they're religious.

Case in point, myself. I find the concept of two guys fucking eachother repulsive and some of the gay cultural behavior I find either annoying or disgusting. But that's just personal taste, I fully support gay marriage and don't consider them differently than anyone else. There's nothing 'wrong' or 'evil' about it, it just a particular culture and preference of lifestyle I have zero interest in.

[Justforfun000]

Case in point, myself. I find the concept of two guys fucking each other repulsive and some of the gay cultural behavior I find either annoying or disgusting.

Really? It actually repulses you? I find that odd. From a gay man perspective I don't find straight sex 'repulsive', it just doesn't relate to me. I can watch it and just wonder what is turning the man on about the woman. I've also seen lesbian porn and that's just even less engaging. I just get a feeling of supreme indifference to it. If it was hardcore fetish stuff it might turn me off, but regular sex? Nah.

And you find just the CONCEPT repulsive? I find that odd, but whatever. I guess you must be hardwired that way.

And everyone whether out or in the gay 'culture', (whatever that term really means anyway), can find many things in it that is annoying or disgusting. Still the same things exist in straight culture in the seedier side of life. It doesn't really have anything to do with being 'straight' or 'gay' though, it's just a set of behaviours common to certain groups of people with common interests. It's not really the orientation defining the behaviour.

[Singular Intellect]

Case in point, myself. I find the concept of two guys fucking each other repulsive and some of the gay cultural behavior I find either annoying or disgusting.

Really? It actually repulses you? I find that odd. From a gay man perspective I don't find straight sex 'repulsive', it just doesn't relate to me. I can watch it and just wonder what is turning the man on about the woman. I've also seen lesbian porn and that's just even less engaging. I just get a feeling of supreme indifference to it. If it was hardcore fetish stuff it might turn me off, but regular sex? Nah.

And you find just the CONCEPT repulsive? I find that odd, but whatever. I guess you must be hardwired that way.

Perhaps another way of looking at it would be my disgust towards the asian 'delicacy' of eating live baby octopus. There's nothing wrong with eating, and people aren't the only predators that eat their food alive, but I still find it personally disgusting. *shrugs* Personal taste, there's no accounting for it. I've never heard of anyone actually chosing their subjective preferences. That would've come in really handy as a kid when I was told to eat my vegetables for example.

And everyone whether out or in the gay 'culture', (whatever that term really means anyway), can find many things in it that is annoying or disgusting. Still the same things exist in straight culture in the seedier side of life. It doesn't really have anything to do with being 'straight' or 'gay' though, it's just a set of behaviours common to certain groups of people with common interests. It's not really the orientation defining the behaviour.

I agree. I didn't mean to come across as sounding like I expect or attribute certain behaviors and activities to the all or the majority of any particular group.

[Darth Wong]

And everyone whether out or in the gay 'culture', (whatever that term really means anyway),

Oh come on, don't play dumb. You know exactly what people mean when they say "gay culture". It's a euphemism for flamers, like the people they see riding the floats in the Gay Pride Parade.

[Justforfun000]

Oh come on, don't play dumb. You know exactly what people mean when they say "gay culture". It's a euphemism for flamers, like the people they see riding the floats in the Gay Pride Parade.

Actually I wasn't sure WHAT was meant. That didn't even enter my head as one of the examples. The first thing I thought of was the overemphasis on sex in some establishment like gay bars that have porn on the TV in the background.

[Spyder]

Case in point, myself. I find the concept of two guys fucking each other repulsive and some of the gay cultural behavior I find either annoying or disgusting.

Really? It actually repulses you? I find that odd. From a gay man perspective I don't find straight sex 'repulsive', it just doesn't relate to me. I can watch it and just wonder what is turning the man on about the woman. I've also seen lesbian porn and that's just even less engaging. I just get a feeling of supreme indifference to it. If it was hardcore fetish stuff it might turn me off, but regular sex? Nah.

And you find just the CONCEPT repulsive? I find that odd, but whatever. I guess you must be hardwired that way.

And everyone whether out or in the gay 'culture', (whatever that term really means anyway), can find many things in it that is annoying or disgusting. Still the same things exist in straight culture in the seedier side of life. It doesn't really have anything to do with being 'straight' or 'gay' though, it's just a set of behaviours common to certain groups of people with common interests. It's not really the orientation defining the behaviour.

That's actually an interesting thing. I will admit, gay sex between men repulses me too, maybe sometimes comedic... but yeah the idea of watching two guys going at it definately provokes negative feelings. I also notice that women often seem to be put off by it as well, which is odd considering straight males are usually more then happy to watch lesbians going at it.

Now logicially, this makes no sense. Gay male couples remove two males from competition whereas lesbians remove two females from the pool of potential mates. If a group of straight males saw a gay couple start going at it in the middle of a bar they should be cheering them on. Unfortunately the brain just switches off and says "Nope, not correct. There's no vagina involved anywhere in this sequence of events, this is epic fail".

[Justforfun000]

I also notice that women often seem to be put off by it as well, which is odd considering straight males are usually more then happy to watch lesbians going at it.

Actually you'd be surprised how many women are turned on by it. I've had quite a few tell me they like gay porn.

If a group of straight males saw a gay couple start going at it in the middle of a bar they should be cheering them on. Unfortunately the brain just switches off and says "Nope, not correct. There's no vagina involved anywhere in this sequence of events, this is epic fail".

They can't relate so it makes them uncomfortable. I wouldn't really care to be present for the straights going at it too much either, but doubly so for lesbians and that's where your answer lies.

On top of that, there is a higher chance for negative reactions to gay examples because of stigmatism. We can't help but be affected by our upbringing. Maybe in another 50 years it will be different...

[Spyder]

They can't relate so it makes them uncomfortable. I wouldn't really care to be present for the straights going at it too much either, but doubly so for lesbians and that's where your answer lies.

On top of that, there is a higher chance for negative reactions to gay examples because of stigmatism. We can't help but be affected by our upbringing. Maybe in another 50 years it will be different...

It's more about just not letting ourselves be ruled by our base instincts. Everyone experiences illogical feelings to various stimuli, a lot of it's just being outside your comfort zone, it's only our actions that truely matter.

I don't believe it's intolerant to feel creeped out by something, only when you start throwing rocks at it.

[Superman]

There was a study performed by some researchers at Brown University a year or two ago where participants were shown erotica, including gay erotica, and their responses were monitored with a functional MRI. The result was pretty interesting. When the men were shown erotica on a monitor, the appetite centers of the brain lit up like a Christmas tree. When shown gay erotica, the brain's threat response centers lit up. Even a few of the researchers, who considered themselves indifferent to homosexuality, found that they reacted in the same way. So there may actually be a biological basis for what straight men feel toward homosexuality.

[Justforfun000]

There was a study performed by some researchers at Brown University a year or two ago where participants were shown erotica, including gay erotica, and their responses were monitored with a functional MRI. The result was pretty interesting. When the men were shown erotica on a monitor, the appetite centers of the brain lit up like a Christmas tree. When shown gay erotica, the brain's threat response centers lit up. Even a few of the researchers, who considered themselves indifferent to homosexuality, found that they reacted in the same way. So there may actually be a biological basis for what straight men feel toward homosexuality.

That IS interesting. I wonder what the opposite case would be. I'd love to see what the gay reactions would be to straight and lesbian porn.

[Superman]

That IS interesting. I wonder what the opposite case would be. I'd love to see what the gay reactions would be to straight and lesbian porn.

I would too. Hopefully more research is on the way.

[Justforfun000]

Hmmm..I wonder if the "threat" could be to their sense of masculinity? Or maybe it's the social thing again, as in "Oh no...this is the kind of behaviour thats considered insulting, and I'm watching it making me vulnerable to being accused to like it". Do you get what I mean? It's possible that kind of subconscious reaction is happening.

[Darth Raptor]

Interesting, but it doesn't say much we didn't already know. Only religious nutbags front arguments to justify their animosity toward gay people, but that animosity is still inherently irrational. Does biology cause homophobia, or does homophobia influence biology? Both could cause those results. Even if they're socially liberal conciously they may still hate and fear homosexuality on a subconscious level or, more accurately, they have been psychologically conditioned to by the society we live in. I'm sure that other conditioned negative associations (like the infamous white rat) could trigger the same responses.

[Superman]

Sorry, that was Emory University. Here's part of an interview with Dr. Drew Pinsky, one of the researchers.

Q: I heard a statistic that 60 percent of straight women who have had sex have also had at least one sexual encounter with another woman. How true is this? If so, why would this be the case? Do straight women like having sexual encounters with other women because they don't always get satisfied by men?


I believe that statistic is somewhat overstated. However, it has become increasingly common for women to experiment with other women — maybe not specifically having a sexual encounter but at least making out in intimate touching. Women are observed, generally, to be more fluid with their sexuality — that is to say, that experimentation with other women is more common and less likely to be associated with confusion about sexual identity or a specific homosexual orientation. It really has nothing to do about with how they feel about men. It is more that they feel something for women, are attracted to women, and are interested in women, and feel comfortable experimenting with this. There is quite a bit of discussion about this issue. People often report that men are more rigid about their sexual orientation and are less willing to experiment. In my experience it has been more that men seem less interested sexually in other men and actually experience no drive to initiate this sort of contact. I was recently at Emory University and underwent a functional MRI scan myself in response to multiple sexual visual stimuli. and I was surprised to find that when I was shown pictures of naked men, subjectively I felt neutral, had no ill feeling about it, yet the researchers showed me that my brain responded with a characteristic "threat response" that apparently is very common among men looking at these images. This suggests there may actually be a be a biological basis for why many men don't feel sexually aroused by other men.

[Starglider]

Now logicially, this makes no sense. Gay male couples remove two males from competition whereas lesbians remove two females from the pool of potential mates. If a group of straight males saw a gay couple start going at it in the middle of a bar they should be cheering them on. Unfortunately the brain just switches off and says "Nope, not correct. There's no vagina involved anywhere in this sequence of events, this is epic fail".

There are a lot of logical improvements that could be made to humans, but we're a very new species and there was only a limited amount of selection pressure to work with (the net information created by natural selection is only 1 bit per generation if half of all children survive to breed, minus mutation decay - the only reason it works at all on complex animals is the layered compression mechanisms formed by gene expression). 'Concentrate reproductive efforts on opposite sex' was an important enough to instinct to get selected for fairly strongly, though clearly it's still not very reliable. Advanced game-theoretic stuff hasn't had time to get selected in yet (and may never do so, if more important traits monopolise all the selection pressure). Ironically a major (perhaps the major) reason the human brain evolved is to do just these kind of social analyses, but most humans are mentally lazy and the presence of a 'ugh, gay sex bad' feeling is enough to derail further thought in many cases.

The fact that humans are so horribly and obviously flawed, mentally and physically, is one of the things that makes the whole 'benevolent omnipotent creator' concept so ludicrous (for me). For natural selection, we're the first freak outlier that managed to (just barely) make it over the 'technogical takeoff' barrier and start accumulating technological and scientific knowledge at an accelerating pace.

[Spin Echo]

That IS interesting. I wonder what the opposite case would be. I'd love to see what the gay reactions would be to straight and lesbian porn.

I would too. Hopefully more research is on the way.

Well, there's one idea for my postdoctoral research

[Executor32]

I personally find gay sex repulsive because, with men being the hairy, lumpy creatures they are, I find it impossible to find them sexually attractive. However, this isn't any different from me finding sex with a really nasty chick repulsive, and I certainly have no problem with other people doing it. I'd just rather not do it or watch it myself.