Can someone explain Global Warming to me?

[Darth Wong]

Re Right-wingers vs Left-wingers: right-wingers tend to ignore the human cost of their actions. Left-wingers tend to ignore the financial cost of their actions. Together, they fuck EVERYTHING up

[TrailerParkJawa]

Even if there are still unknowns about global warming, I would rather err on the side of caution, rather than risk the biggest fuckup mankind has ever inflicted upon himself.

It's not that simple. If we try the massive scale down of CO2 that would be needed to put even a small dent in the greenhouse, we would end up shattering the world economy. Modern nations would feel the squeeze big time. In the future when we develop the tech needed to move away from our heavy reliance on fossil fuels, the problem should become mute.

A lot of the crazier enviromentalists would love to see the economy shatter because they have misguided notions about anarchy and sustainable cultures. What they dont get is if the economy shattered the toll on the environment would be devastating. People would cut down trees left and right for fire wood. Rivers and lakes would be fished to exhaustion, and the entire farm structure would collapse.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Anyone who feels we're near or need to seriously consider a Venesian runaway greenhouse affect is an alarmist who needs to read some serious articles.

The danger people are concerned with is extinctions, crop failures, and low-level coastal flooding.

[Enlightenment]

The danger people are concerned with is extinctions, crop failures, and low-level coastal flooding.

Yeah. Trivial little things like the streets of NYC being under a few feet of water. But let's not let the get in the way of every Americans' right to be an greedy and ignorant fuckwit. Keep driving those SUVs, boys. God and capitalism will keep the polar ice caps from melting.

Oh, and the increasingly severe winter and summer weather events are exactly what current climate models predict. As the global average temperature rises the weather peaks become more severe.

[Darth Wong]

Yeah. Trivial little things like the streets of NYC being under a few feet of water. But let's not let the get in the way of every Americans' right to be an greedy and ignorant fuckwit. Keep driving those SUVs, boys. God and capitalism will keep the polar ice caps from melting.

No, not "God and capitalism": it's "The Market". Remember, The Market is not only self-regulating in the sense that it reacts to fluctuations, but it also mysteriously knows how to set the best long-term course for human society.

All praise The Market

[Illuminatus Primus]

The danger people are concerned with is extinctions, crop failures, and low-level coastal flooding.

Yeah. Trivial little things like the streets of NYC being under a few feet of water. But let's not let the get in the way of every Americans' right to be an greedy and ignorant fuckwit. Keep driving those SUVs, boys. God and capitalism will keep the polar ice caps from melting.

Fuck you. I'm sick of people acting like I can't live her without being a right-wing ignorant selfish, self-aggrandizing fuck if I actually love my country. Who are you to slap bullshit generalizations like that? Maybe you didn't see my clearly anti-SUV post in the other thread? Quit your fucking whining and think before you rant and make bullshit generalizations.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Yeah. Trivial little things like the streets of NYC being under a few feet of water. But let's not let the get in the way of every Americans' right to be an greedy and ignorant fuckwit. Keep driving those SUVs, boys. God and capitalism will keep the polar ice caps from melting.

No, not "God and capitalism": it's "The Market". Remember, The Market is not only self-regulating in the sense that it reacts to fluctuations, but it also mysteriously knows how to set the best long-term course for human society.

All praise The Market

Sounds like you're not a Milton Friedman proponent

[Enlightenment]

Fuck you. I'm sick of people acting like I can't live her without being a right-wing ignorant selfish, self-aggrandizing fuck if I actually love my country.

In the last US elections I seem to recall that the majority voted to sweep a party comprised entirely of right-wing, ignorant, selfish, greedy, mercantilist self-aggrandizing fuckwits into power in both houses of Congress. If you don't like the idea of your country being regarded in the international community as a haven for right-wing morons, then find some way to keep right-wing morons out of public office.

[Mr Flibble]

There are more pressing issues to worry about than global warming. Smog over cities is real, is bad, and can be changed. Deforestation without replantion is real, is bad, and can be changed. Dumping of toxic waste into rivers is real, is bad, and can be changed. Global warming might be real, it could be good or bad, and it probably can't be changed. Where should we focus our priorities, on that which is known and correctable, or that which is still unknown, and probably not correctable?

I agree on that, first we need to solve the problems which we actually know exist.

The fact may be true that the cause of global warming is still to be determined, whereas other problems are more obvious and treatable. However, no other environmental problem has the potential to fuck humanity over like global warming. We know that Venus' hellish atmosphere is due to a runaway greenhouse effect (an increase in temperature releases more CO2 from carbonate rocks, and increases greenhouse effect etc), in fact the concerns over global warming first came about during the 70s, when the mechanism for the Venusian climate first became clear.

If a runaway greenhouse effect gets going on Earth, the planet's going to become inhabitable, and there's absolutely NOTHING we can do to stop it, let alone reverse it. That's why environmentalists are particularly rabid about global warming. Other problems such as deforestation, pollution, etc, are generally reversible...even something like the Exxon Valdez mess could be more or less cleaned up with effort and time.

Even if there are still unknowns about global warming, I would rather err on the side of caution, rather than risk the biggest fuckup mankind has ever inflicted upon himself.

I am sorry but that statement has so much crap in it I have to address it. There is no way in hell that Earth could have a runaway greenhouse effect. If we burnt all the fossil fuels on the planet, it would not be enough to cause a runaway greenhouse effect. Secondly when carbonate rocks are eroded, they actually absorb CO2.

The thing about rising sea levels that people seem not to comprehend, is that it will/is happening slowly. We will have plenty of time to react, it is not going to rise by 50m overnight.

A couple of facts: (1) The Earth is going through a period of global warming at the moment, however the cause for this is unknown.
(2) CO2 levels in the atmosphere have been increasing rapidly since the industrial revolution, it is highly likely these come from human activity.
(3) Global climate and CO2 levels seem to be linked but it is uncertain how, ice cores show that CO2 levels sometimes are ahead of temperature change, sometimes they lag behind.
(4) All it takes to cool global temperatures by 1 or 2 degrees (C) for a couple of years is one moderately sized volcanic eruption.
(7) If we were to have another 'mini ice age' then it would not matter how much CO2 we produced the temperature would still drop.
(6) We are in an ice age. Everyone seems to forget that for most of Earth's history there has not been ice at the poles. it is only the unusual continental set up which has altered the ocean currents.
(7) The rate of exticintions may be great, but it is hard to compare to fossil records, because fossil records how so much missing data.

My biggest environmental concern is land clearance leading to degradation of farmland, and in Australia also leading to degradation of water supply. Something must be done to correct the problems here or Australia will lose most of its arable land.

In conlclusion the world has bigger things to worry about, than climate change which could be part of a natural cycle anyway, and that has slow and relatively easy to deal with effects.

[The Dark]

I'll admit first off I didn't read through this whole thread. Now that that's over, on with my post:

I don't know about elsewhere, but in Florida we've been hitting record lows for the past few months. This has been the coldest winter on record, and a long one as well. The longest I recall is from 6 years ago, when it was in the 40s in Orlando on Halloween night. This year it was about two weeks later, but we've just now had one warm day. For Florida, that's unusual. Our summers have also been near record levels. This suggests to me that while there may or may not be global warming, the weather is becoming more volatile. This is most likely a cyclical trend, however. If I recall correctly, we are actually due for a mini ice age like in the 1800s, so I'm getting out my winter coats...may actually need them down here.

[Peregrin Toker]

Re Right-wingers vs Left-wingers: right-wingers tend to ignore the human cost of their actions. Left-wingers tend to ignore the financial cost of their actions. Together, they fuck EVERYTHING up

Nah, some Communists ignore BOTH the human and economic costs of their actions.

[Illuminatus Primus]

In the last US elections I seem to recall that the majority voted to sweep a party comprised entirely of right-wing, ignorant, selfish, greedy, mercantilist self-aggrandizing fuckwits into power in both houses of Congress. If you don't like the idea of your country being regarded in the international community as a haven for right-wing morons, then find some way to keep right-wing morons out of public office.

Irrelevent dodge. You still pointed to the election results as evidence to defend your bullshit generalization. It is fallacious of them to make such generalizations, and fallacious of you to do the same. Don't hide behind "well here in Europe you're viewed as..." as if that excuses your vomit.

What makes you think I'm a Republican? What makes you think I agree with the majority? There's a vast number of stupid people in this country, and I can't do anything to reverse their bullshit. You think I thought W should have withdrawn from the Kyoto Treaty to appease his oil buddies? This was about the affects of human civilization on climate changes. You singled out Americans and generalized us all as being in favor of fucking over everyone else.

You demonstrated none of the following:

1.) Possible climate changes are due to, in significant part, to the CO2 emissions caused by American energy and mercantilist policies.

2.) That all Americans support said policies.

I called you up on your unacceptable nation-slandering and incoherent babbling generalizations. You dodged and made a comment about the view of my country when my post dealt solely with the fact I am not to be bunched in with the majorities with regards to certain stupid decisions simply because I live here.

Your whole statement was one big red herring and bullshit dodge from your ranting generalizations. If you can tell me how saying everyone in America is a selfish right-wing asshole, fine. But otherwise shut the fuck up with your bullshit, asshole.

[MKSheppard]

Yeah. Trivial little things like the streets of NYC being under a few feet of water. But let's not let the get in the way of every Americans' right to be an greedy and ignorant fuckwit. Keep driving those SUVs, boys. God and capitalism will keep the polar ice caps from melting.

Is that such a bad thing?

[MKSheppard]

In the last US elections I seem to recall that the majority voted to sweep a party comprised entirely of right-wing, ignorant, selfish, greedy, mercantilist self-aggrandizing fuckwits into power in both houses of Congress. If you don't like the idea of your country being regarded in the international community as a haven for right-wing morons, then find some way to keep right-wing morons out of public office.

Hey......two words, Enlightenment.


BITE ME

[Sea Skimmer]

Something is happen to the climate. However it also seems to have started at least 10,000 years ago. Kind of kills the "human industry is causing it" standard green line.

[Sea Skimmer]

runaway greenhouse cannot happen on earth. plants thrive in CO2, and thus any excess CO2 will result in alot more plants eeting it all up and producing oxygen as waste. The projected result of global warming leaves the planet colder the during the Jurassic. Now, lets see what the jurassic gave us: shitloads of rainforests everwhere including ANTARCTICA, giant dinosaurs that were able to maintain their size and numbers due to extreme amounts of foliage and prey..

Hmm, seems to me like the only bad thing about global warming is we might in a million years have to fight off Godzilla.

To be fair, Antarctica was at a latitudemore like that of Australia at the time. Higher tempatures also breed clouds, which while trapping heat also do a good job of relfecting the sun's rays back into space.

[Sea Skimmer]

Re Right-wingers vs Left-wingers: right-wingers tend to ignore the human cost of their actions. Left-wingers tend to ignore the financial cost of their actions. Together, they fuck EVERYTHING up

We can always breed more humans. But we can't get back precious potential economic development time. GET THE DRAGLINES!

[Sea Skimmer]

The danger people are concerned with is extinctions, crop failures, and low-level coastal flooding.

Yeah. Trivial little things like the streets of NYC being under a few feet of water. But let's not let the get in the way of every Americans' right to be an greedy and ignorant fuckwit. Keep driving those SUVs, boys. God and capitalism will keep the polar ice caps from melting.

Oh, and the increasingly severe winter and summer weather events are exactly what current climate models predict. As the global average temperature rises the weather peaks become more severe.

The Antarctic ice has been melting for at least 10,000 years. Even taken a look at man's development level back then?

[Edi]

Illuminatus Primus, when America has 5% of world population and produces 25% of waste emissions, you can be damn sure that your nation will be held responsible for a lot of the manmade effect on environment (whatever it may be) and pollution, no matter what you personally may think of it. And if the rest of the world tries to adopt measures to do something about it and the US just tells it that "we won't participate because it'll cost some money", then expect to get slammed for it. If you agree with Enlightenment and me and others and condemn the US approach to the issue, fine from my point of view, but if you at the same time stand up and defend the current practices, expect no mercy.

Us Europeans of whatever nationality don't like Americans calling us cowardly, whiny, communistic Eurotrash and lumping us all into the same generalized category as if there were no differences between Finn and Portuguese and German and Greek and all the others, we don't like that shit any more than you like the rest of the world generalizing Americans, but I've not usually seen Europeans start frothing at the mouth when that happens.

On global warming and climate change, the reason for the world being so cool right now is, as already pointed out, the strange arrangement of the continents, which blocks the warm equatorial ocean currents. Meanwhile the Antarctic current functions as a freezer unit because there's nothing to block it. The warming/cooling cycle is natural enough (human effect aside for a moment) and will happen, but the reason it is a source of worry is that it fucks up the status quo weather-wise and affects the environement where food production takes place, and that causes economic damage.

The sea level thing is a serious issue, and one reason that warming is not a good thing, especially if it happens in the Antarctica, is the Ross Ice Shelf. For those who don't know, it's a giant slab of continental ice that extends from the Antarctica and reaches all the way down to the sea floor, but a huge amount of it is above sea level. It's not structurally sound enough in some important places that we should be too comfortable with it, because if it breaks off due to warming or whatever, the above sea level volume of ice is, IIRC, enough to raise sea level 12 meters world wide when it floats off and submerges. Needless to say, that would be a VERY BAD THING(TM). Ross Ice Shelf aside, most sea level rising is as much due to thermal expansion of water as melting glaciers.

Deforestation and desertification are the most important environmental issues, imo, because they also affect large weather patterns and result in loss of arable land. Doing something about those would be helpful, and I wouldn't mind seeing the extinction rate going seriously down either.

There's a lot that could be done with just a moderate amount of money, but every time anyone even brings up environmental issues they are labeled as kooks and fanatics and rabidly attacked, especially by Americans. That's not intended as a slander of Americans in general, it's what I've observed myself on the net on most boards I've frequented. The picture painted by the American media doesn't much help either, especially with the focus being on extremist groups.

Edi

[Beowulf]

No one can explain global warming in a way that actually works in practice.

[Mr Flibble]

.
Deforestation and desertification are the most important environmental issues, imo, because they also affect large weather patterns and result in loss of arable land. Doing something about those would be helpful, and I wouldn't mind seeing the extinction rate going seriously down either.

On top of that dealing with deforsetation and desertification is that if we address these issues, as a by product we will be helping to reduce CO2 emissions. Land clearance releases CO2 trapped in the soil, and of course slash/burn land clearing releases even more CO2, whilst taking away the forest, which would have been able to absorb lots of CO2, and permanently degrading the land. I think this is a much more important issue to tackle than fossil fuel use, as it has just a damaging effect as global warming, and it is known to be human induced. The trouble is most of the damage is being done in the third world, and Australia.

[Dargos]

This may sound insane, but could it be that the Earth is finally starting to come out of the last Ice Age and is slowly returning to its proper temp.?

[Admiral Valdemar]

This may sound insane, but could it be that the Earth is finally starting to come out of the last Ice Age and is slowly returning to its proper temp.?

That's what a lot of people think, I would have to say that a lot of signs show that what with the milder weather in my area at least over the last century.

But these things take many years to witness, I wouldn't call it concrete yet.

As for the political view; I'm in the middle since the left and right can fuck themselves till the end of time for all I care.

[MKSheppard]

If this is what global warming is like, lots and lots of snow, BRING IT ON!

[Illuminatus Primus]

Edi, I SUPPORTED the Kyoto treaty and other resolutions. My inability to physically force my President to stop being a shithead does not give Enlightenment the right to make his bullshit whining holier-then-thou generalizing rants. I also can't prevent the "Christan nation" bullshit here or my mother from driving her absurd SUV. Should I be criticized for that too? He can shut the fuck up.

Us Europeans of whatever nationality don't like Americans calling us cowardly, whiny, communistic Eurotrash and lumping us all into the same generalized category as if there were no differences between Finn and Portuguese and German and Greek and all the others, we don't like that shit any more than you like the rest of the world generalizing Americans, but I've not usually seen Europeans start frothing at the mouth when that happens.

So? I got sick and tired of his substance-less bullshit. The one thing I definitely hate about this country is the abundance of stupid people who make generalizations like that. My behavior is not answerable to the norm of Europeans who don't like dumbfuck Americans' generalizations. That's completely irrelevent to the point. Thank you very much.