Faking Religion to Avoid Immunization

[wautd]

While some parents — Christian Scientists and certain fundamentalists, for example — have genuine religious objections to medicine, it is clear that others are simply distrustful of shots.

Notice the idiotic unspoken assumption here that people opting out for "genuine" religious reasons is okay.

That always pissed me off. Like Dawkins says "there is no such thing as a christian or muslim child" or more appropriate for this tread a jehova's witness child

[Turin]

Notice the idiotic unspoken assumption here that people opting out for "genuine" religious reasons is okay.

Hmph. It's more like a politically correct way of saying that they are stupid.

Doubtful. The press and a large portion of the rest of the world seems to bend over backwards to "respect" religion. I don't agree of course, particularly in cases like this where life and limb of children (and everyone else) are being threatened by someone's belief in their imaginary friend.

Being simply distrustful of vaccination has at least a tenuous connection to reality -- as in we actually know that autism exists (or "allergies", or whatever the anti-vaccine people are claiming these day)

Being distrustful of a vaccination has absolutely zero bearing on reality if the vaccination in question is a proven treatment.

I was being sarcastic here: autism exists, vaccines exist, invisible sky faeries do not.

On the contrary it will only make them scream louder, if they lose the mercury from vaccines they'll find it somewhere else. Hell maybe it's vapors in the atmosphere! Maybe it's in the water! Trust me, they WILL find another vector that mercury could have gotten into the children.

The little detail the anti-vaccine nutters like to avoid mentioning, of course, is that thimerosal hasn't been used in increasingly fewer vaccines in the last decade, yet autism rates are still going up. Since autism is typically first diagnosed in early childhood, we should see the effects on rates if there was any causation. Except, oops, no causation.

[Turin]

<sigh> Why do I never catch this when I preview...

The little detail the anti-vaccine nutters like to avoid mentioning, of course, is that thimerosal hasn't been used in increasingly fewer vaccines in the last decade, yet autism rates are still going up.

Obviously, that should be has been used in increasingly fewer. I changed the negative when I pasted in my link and missed the mistake.

[Norseman]

<sigh> Why do I never catch this when I preview...

The little detail the anti-vaccine nutters like to avoid mentioning, of course, is that thimerosal hasn't been used in increasingly fewer vaccines in the last decade, yet autism rates are still going up.

Obviously, that should be has been used in increasingly fewer. I changed the negative when I pasted in my link and missed the mistake.

Indeed, when you combine that with the fact that mercury was ludicrously more prevailent in the past (link) it really drives nails into the coffin of the thimerosol theory.

BTW IIRC you can "afford" a certain number of dissenters from vaccines, e.g. if the vast majority of the population is vaccinated then a minority who isn't will still benefit from the vaccination preventing the spread of the diseases. I mean even though some kids don't get the vaccine the last incidence of Polio for instance was in 1979.

[Justforfun000]

If you've studied my link you'll also realise that mercury was considered a panacea in the past, and administered to everyone. So if there was a connection you'd expect a much, much higher incidence of autism in the past. That doesn't appear to be the case...

I'm aware of that, but it's still irrelevant if you are just pointing a finger at the potential harmful effects of mercury. It's apparently not in any way to blame for Autism, but it DOES seem to have some negative effects. It's enough to look for an alternative preservative in my mind, but I would STILL choose the vaccination and the risk of adverse effects. That's where these other people are dense. They dismiss the very real, and far more damaging effects of the disease the vaccine is trying to prevent.

[Tsyroc]

Anyone know when Autism first became a diagnosis?

I know it's being diagnosed a lot more now but that doesn't necessarilly mean there's been an increase in the percentage of the population who are autistic. The rise in the cases of autism is very likely because physicians are much better at recognizing it's symptoms and not because of immunizations.

[Eris]

Because an unproven, possible, weak link to autism in utero or infancy is more dangerous than the lifetime risk of dying from deadly infectious disease and transmitting it to others?

Possible link?

All reputable studies so no link whatsoever. A very, very few children have medical conditions that truly make vaccination risky, but those are (as far as I know) strictly immune disorders or serious illnesses like cancer. You occasionally see allergic reactions, or similar adverse reactions, but there is NO, repeat NO connection between vaccines and autism

Not only is there no connection between vaccines and autism, but there are actually statistics that suggest that there cannot be a link between the two. Autism cases appear in clusters, without the uniform increase across the general population that would occur if a widespread practice like vaccination were a contributing cause.

This beyond the fact that religious reasons to begin with are pretty flimsy justification for putting an already high risk demographic (young children) at even more risk to potentially crippling or fatal infectious diseases.

[Zixinus]

That is why I suggest to put children without vaccination into special kindergarden/schools. If we are talking about a condition where vaccination is dangerous due to medical reasons, then it is likely that the child may already require it already. And it would give people with a "philosophical" or "religious" excuses more to think about or re-think their position. Their rights at religious freedom ends at the endangerment of others.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Because an unproven, possible, weak link to autism in utero or infancy is more dangerous than the lifetime risk of dying from deadly infectious disease and transmitting it to others?

Possible link?

All reputable studies so no link whatsoever. A very, very few children have medical conditions that truly make vaccination risky, but those are (as far as I know) strictly immune disorders or serious illnesses like cancer. You occasionally see allergic reactions, or similar adverse reactions, but there is NO, repeat NO connection between vaccines and autism

I haven't looked into it; I'm being charitable. I heard however that there was WHO inquiries into the mercury-based preservatives found in many youth immunizations.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Edit, apparently that is wrong; I suspected it was bullshit but thanks for the confirm.

[Zixinus]

That is why I suggest to put children without vaccination into special kindergarden/schools. If we are talking about a condition where vaccination is dangerous due to medical reasons, then it is likely that the child may already require it already. And it would give people with a "philosophical" or "religious" excuses more to think about or re-think their position. Their rights at religious freedom ends at the endangerment of others.

An add note: I do not know what conditions make immunization shots dangerous.

[Vendetta]

Here are the risks, for those folks so scared to death of autism they think MMR is a shot full of it:

Rubella - unimmunized women risk their babies' getting congenital rubella syndrome.

Also, causes infertility in men.

I do not know what conditions make immunization shots dangerous.

Weakened immune systems are the obvious one.

[Cairber]

My son had a really weird reaction to the MMR a few weeks back-- but it was almost identical to the reaction he gets from milk and some cheeses. Although he is ok with eggs, the doctor thought maybe they were connected somehow. His eyes got all puffed up, his leg swelled a lot more than the usual shot swelling, and he broke out in hives.

So we are just going to hold off on that one, and, in a year or so, we might try an MMR made from another company.

So I guess allergies might be a reason to be wary of vaccines, but, again, we aren't really sure what it was he reacted to in the vaccine.

I've already heard that kids with epilepsy sometimes have troubles with vaccines? BUt that might have been anti vax propaganda (there's a lot of it in the parenting advice world- books and websites and such)

[Eris]

So I guess allergies might be a reason to be wary of vaccines, but, again, we aren't really sure what it was he reacted to in the vaccine.

This sort of reaction, plus some others like the symptoms of a mild strain of the disease vaccinated. Also, very rarely, a full case is caught, although it's important to stress that the likelihood of this happening is lower than you having caught the disease in the first place living in an unvaccinated community, and even then it is usually a weak strain.

There used to be a legitimate concern about mercury in them, although not because of autism, but just 'cause mercury is rather toxic. The mercury containing compound thiomersal was used as a preservative, and in some cases still is. However, anyone citing this as a concern nowadays is full of it. It is mostly phased out entirely, and is almost universally abandoned in vaccines used for children aged 12 and below. (I think there is one or two exceptions to that, but they're not vaccines part of the standard regimen, and not linked with autism in any case.)

[Cairber]

Yeah, I think my daughter caught rotavirus from when my son got the rotatec (sp?) vaccine. It just seemed too ironic that she was sick right after he got vaccinated for it. But lots of moms told me that, when their unvaccinated children (before rotatec came out) got the disease, it lasted a week and sometimes they had to be hospitalized for dehydration and other horrors.

My daughter's case only last 3-4 days and she was fine.

[Stark]

Not only is there no connection between vaccines and autism, but there are actually statistics that suggest that there cannot be a link between the two. Autism cases appear in clusters, without the uniform increase across the general population that would occur if a widespread practice like vaccination were a contributing cause.

This beyond the fact that religious reasons to begin with are pretty flimsy justification for putting an already high risk demographic (young children) at even more risk to potentially crippling or fatal infectious diseases.

This interests me, because I don't know the split between hereditary autism and traumatic autism. Apparently you can develop the symptoms during life if you take damage, but my entire extended family has autism-like symptoms, back generations, so any attempt to blame it on vaccinations is crazy.

[Konig15]

Not that this is going to make me very welcome here, but...

...even though I am a commited Christian, I think you all are generally right. It's obvious we should not allow child sacrifce in the name of relgious freedom, I see no reason why conscience should be a factor in being immunized. Then again, I don't see why conscience should be a factor in serving in the military, peacetime or wartime. All of these thing, in my mind, imperil the common good. Take that as you will.

[Zixinus]

Dr.House says it best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsK7Jt-x ... e%20secret

It's obvious we should not allow child sacrifce in the name of relgious freedom, I see no reason why conscience should be a factor in being immunized.

Child...sacrifice? What? Not immunizing your child from common diseases that could easily kill him or her, unless there is a good medical reason not to, is not sacrifice, its stupidity.

[Konig15]

Oh, I agree, it's just stupidity. My point was simply that there has to be limits on 'freedom of conscience.' Hopefully not too severe, but there has to be limits.

[Rye]

Dr.House says it best:

Got to love format-breaking links.

Child...sacrifice? What? Not immunizing your child from common diseases that could easily kill him or her, unless there is a good medical reason not to, is not sacrifice, its stupidity.

Killing people through a firmly held and stupid religious belief is killing them for an ideological cause, it is de facto child sacrifice.

[Junghalli]

This interests me, because I don't know the split between hereditary autism and traumatic autism. Apparently you can develop the symptoms during life if you take damage, but my entire extended family has autism-like symptoms, back generations

I watched a program about this on PBS once. There's a theory that autism has an epigenetic trigger, meaning it's genetic but the gene may be turned on or off depending on some environmental factor.

[Zixinus]

Got to love format-breaking links.

Sorry, could a mod please fix it?

Killing people through a firmly held and stupid religious belief is killing them for an ideological cause, it is de facto child sacrifice.

Child sacrifiice to what? What sort of fucked up religion demands children to be killed by a disease?

[Broomstick]

Killing people through a firmly held and stupid religious belief is killing them for an ideological cause, it is de facto child sacrifice.

Child sacrifiice to what? What sort of fucked up religion demands children to be killed by a disease?

Let's see....

The Amish are opposed to immunization/vaccination

The Jehovah's Witnesses are opposed to blood transfusion even when certain death is the alternative

The Christian Scientists believe prayer should be the only medicine.

That's just off the top of my head.

[Mayabird]

There are also groups that have some sort of anti-medicine thing with them that's not as official or overt as those groups. Breakaway Mormon groups (the ones that go out into the middle of nowhere Arizona, Colorado, and Utah and practice polygamy) are often also against using medicine, preferring to just anoint with oil, pray, and see if their kids die or not.

And it's very true about the Jehovah's Witnesses. There was a kid in my high school band who was one, a trumpet player. Nice kid. He was in a car accident and knocked unconscious. If it had been me, I'd been sewn up, given a pint or two of blood, and within a couple weeks I'd have been back at school showing off my scars to gross out the other band people. His mom wouldn't let them give him a transfusion and he died. He never had any say because he never regained consciousness. She MURDERED her own son for her religion and got away with it.

[Konig15]

There are also groups that have some sort of anti-medicine thing with them that's not as official or overt as those groups. Breakaway Mormon groups (the ones that go out into the middle of nowhere Arizona, Colorado, and Utah and practice polygamy) are often also against using medicine, preferring to just anoint with oil, pray, and see if their kids die or not.

And it's very true about the Jehovah's Witnesses. There was a kid in my high school band who was one, a trumpet player. Nice kid. He was in a car accident and knocked unconscious. If it had been me, I'd been sewn up, given a pint or two of blood, and within a couple weeks I'd have been back at school showing off my scars to gross out the other band people. His mom wouldn't let them give him a transfusion and he died. He never had any say because he never regained consciousness. She MURDERED her own son for her religion and got away with it.

Christ, St. Luke was supposed to be doctor for crying out loud! That story is horrible. I always though the Witnesses were pussies for their pacificism, but this goes beyond the pale. That should be illeagal and the Witnesses, like on a lot of things need to be told to shut the fuck up.