The purpose of prison.

[Rye]

Wouldn't they just go nuts without interacting? If I was stuck in a place like that for years without any friendly contact, I'd chew through my own wrists after a couple of weeks.

[Mr Bean]

Wouldn't they just go nuts without interacting? If I was stuck in a place like that for years without any friendly contact, I'd chew through my own wrists after a couple of weeks.

Yard time, you get two hours or so to meet, greet and compete. Plus interaction with the guards of course. But no interaction between inmates as commonly goes on now.

[MKSheppard]

HOME!

Funnily enough that's what the jail looked like...

[Mr Bean]

*snip image

HOME!

Funnily enough that's what the jail looked like...

Despite what you might think, it's not a DC or New York studio apartment, but it can be confused with one at first.

[MKSheppard]

Despite what you might think, it's not a DC or New York studio apartment, but it can be confused with one at first.

No, I mean the toilet, sink, AND mirror are exactly the same! It's like they bought it from the same supplier.

[MKSheppard]

Oh yes, you forgot a part in your plan - dress them like Kim Jong Il.

[Mr Bean]

Oh yes, you forgot a part in your plan - dress them like Kim Jong Il.

Is that new Kimmy or old Kimmy? Can't have the glasses to be sure

I was thinking the standard Orange/Red Jumpsuit, no pockets, one piece, with a Velcro name-tag on the front, steal that idea from the Marines with the name tags being able to be taken on off any jumpsuit quickly. Or give them a number same setup in place of their name.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Recently during a conversation at work an interesting topic or question was brought up. It was started by a case at work and there was even a thread on this board about it found here.

The question was what if the guy that killed the store clerk years ago had rehabilitated himself in the time between the murder and the time he turned himself in? Is prison more about rehabilitating the convict? or is it about punishing them? or both? if prison is about rehabilitation and not punishment, then should he do jail time?

The answer may seem straight forward.... but is it? Often at parole hearings they try to determine if the convict has been rehabilitated. Which would imply that is what they (the parole board) believe prison to be for. Which is not the same as punishment.

I know that there are many other purposes for locking up crooks but what I am concentrating on here is the difference between the rehabilitation and punishment.

Prison is about reformation, in theory. It practice, however, it is simply the most inhumane form of punishment ever attempted. No serious effort at reformation is possible, psychologically, when surrounded by other offenders, and the isolation from normal society has an enormous effect on the brains of the isolated individuals, in a very negative way. Remember that the prison system was founded by Christians who wanted to imitate the system of monaticism, and we know from prior articles posted here that such extreme isolation has been demonstrated to have negative effects on the brain.

Corporal punishment would be immensely preferable to incarceration; and if someone cannot be rehabilitated by a sharp and salutory dose of pain, best to exile them, or execute them, than to condemn them to years of torture in the black pit of humanity.

[Vehrec]

Recently during a conversation at work an interesting topic or question was brought up. It was started by a case at work and there was even a thread on this board about it found here.

The question was what if the guy that killed the store clerk years ago had rehabilitated himself in the time between the murder and the time he turned himself in? Is prison more about rehabilitating the convict? or is it about punishing them? or both? if prison is about rehabilitation and not punishment, then should he do jail time?

The answer may seem straight forward.... but is it? Often at parole hearings they try to determine if the convict has been rehabilitated. Which would imply that is what they (the parole board) believe prison to be for. Which is not the same as punishment.

I know that there are many other purposes for locking up crooks but what I am concentrating on here is the difference between the rehabilitation and punishment.

Prison is about reformation, in theory. It practice, however, it is simply the most inhumane form of punishment ever attempted. No serious effort at reformation is possible, psychologically, when surrounded by other offenders, and the isolation from normal society has an enormous effect on the brains of the isolated individuals, in a very negative way. Remember that the prison system was founded by Christians who wanted to imitate the system of monaticism, and we know from prior articles posted here that such extreme isolation has been demonstrated to have negative effects on the brain.

Corporal punishment would be immensely preferable to incarceration; and if someone cannot be rehabilitated by a sharp and salutory dose of pain, best to exile them, or execute them, than to condemn them to years of torture in the black pit of humanity.

Or we could try and, you know, do it right when it comes to reformation, place people in a positive, forward looking enviroment that turns them out improved and ready to move on in the world. It would require a ton of effort and money, but if it worked it would largely eliminate repeat offenders. The only trick would be making it upleasent enough to prevent it being exploited by some people as a cheep way to get an education/leg up.

[Turin]

let me outline my hypothetical prison(Which of course would cost more than current methods)

Mr Bean, your hypothetical prison already existed, here in Philadelphia. It was called Eastern State Penitentiary. Subtract the religious aspects, and you've more-or-less got your system. Unfortunately, it seems that the solitary confinement associated with sentences at this prison drove people crazy. Human beings are social creatures -- eliminating that is one of the more painful things you can do to them in the long run.

[Broomstick]

Despite what you might think, it's not a DC or New York studio apartment, but it can be confused with one at first.

No, I mean the toilet, sink, AND mirror are exactly the same! It's like they bought it from the same supplier.

Maybe they did.

I've also seen a similar toilet in a locked psych ward (I was a visitor, not an inmate) and at a Dollar Inn in Lebanon, Indiana. It's cheap, durable, and easy to clean. Also, for jails and psych wards, a little harder to hurt yourself with it than some other models.

[Broomstick]

Incarceration serves three purposes:

1) Containment - you protect the rest of society from Bad People
2) Punishment - does not need explanation
3) Rehabilitation - if you expect to let someone out of prison at some point they need a means and an incentive to stay out of trouble. (Hopefully, they will stay out of trouble, though obviously not all will)

Containment ranges from keeping a drunk off the street until he sobers up so as not to be a hazard to himself or others, to locking up someone like Jeffrey Dahmer for life. Regrettably, some human beings are so bad that one can never let them roam free again, but most will only be contained for shorter periods of time.

Punishment - well, I've heard about how lush prison life is... but oddly enough, only from those who have never actually BEEN in prison. Even in the "softest" prisons your freedom - of movement, choice, food, clothing, of a lot of things - is severely restricted compared to outside. On the other hand, murder, rape, and other crimes should be no more tolerated IN prison than out of it. I've known quite a few people in life who have been to prison, and when I worked at the clinic about 1/3 of our clients were either current or ex-felons. Given a choice, not one of them wanted to go back.

Of course, there are people who feel we should strip everything form a convict and leave them in a bare concrete room 24/7 for their entire sentence. The problem with that is prolonged solitary confinement is very bad for human beings. Lack of mental stimulation is bad for human beings. Lack of physical exercise is bad for human beings. If we inflicted that sort of treatment on a chimpanzee or a dog - hell, even on a parrot - it would be considered cruel and inhumane. I don't know about elsewhere, but the in US it is explicitly written into the basic document on which our government is founded that "cruel and inhumane" punishment is NOT permitted.

Prisoners do not have unfettered access to cable TV - what they can watch is limited and censored. They do not have unfettered access to reading material, or music, or other information - it is all examined and censored. Even "private" mail is not private - letters to and from home can be and are inspected. The types of materials that are accessible to prisoners can be, are, and should be controlled. Deprivation or further restriction of access can have a role, but putting someone in a box with NOTHING but bare walls for a prolonged period of time will result in bad results. Depriving prisoners of all outside information for years at a time can also result in very bad culture shock when released, as well as even greater than usual problems re-adjusting to the outside world.

Let's also talk about the punishment fitting the crime - a serial killer and someone who shoplifted are two different types of Bad People. Folks who are appropriate for low-security prisons and work-release programs shouldn't be locked in bare rooms as if they were mass murderers. Martha Stewart with access to HBO while locked up is not a threat to society. You don't want to take someone of that sort and make them less functional once they get out.

Now, let's talk about rehabilitation. I have two friends who are former felons. One of them was convicted on drug charges (not just possession - there was some trafficking involved). He did his time, did not like it, decided he never wanted to go back, and for the past almost 20 years he has been a model citizen. In fact, a couple of years ago he was made treasurer of a local club in my area in part because, despite making no secrets about his past fuck-uips, he is now regarded as a trustworthy citizen in this area. Not that that occurred overnight - it really did take the better part of two decades being a VERY good citizen to regain the trust of other people. Frankly, despite the fears some people conjure up about ex-felons and criminals I don't view him as any sort of threat. He's better behaved than a lot of people I know who have never been to jail. THAT's rehabilitation - and he admits that if prison being unpleasant (and mind you, he wasn't in a maximum security lock up) he might not have had as much incentive to stay on the straight and narrow.

Another friend of mine, whose details I will not get into since his crime was MUCH worse and he doesn't talk much about it, has also successfully reformed. He is now working as commercial pilot. He is barred from flying for passenger airlines but there are many jobs available otherwise. There was that bit after 9/11 where people wanted to get all the felons out of the air, but you know, this guy hasn't even had a parking ticket in the past 25 years, it's awful damn hard to argue that he's a menace to society. Yes, he had a COLLOSSAL fuck up early in life, but he did his time and he has been squeaky clean ever since. Do we really want to deprive him of the way he is making an honest living?

Also, back at the clinic I met a lot of people either transitioning from jail to freedom, on probation, or struggling with re-adjusting to life outside again. Yes, a lot of them hadn't learned a goddamned thing and went back in, in short order. However, there were others who really were doing their best to straighten their shit out. And I really think that should be supported because society is a hell of a lot better off if these people CAN rehabilitate, self-support, pay taxes, and be law-abiding.

I do think that punishment - the unpleasant part of prison - needs to be there as part of rehabilitation. That's the stick. You also need carrots, and that can include time off for good behavior (but not excessively), help with getting a job with a felony on your record, education, addiction treatment, mental health treatment, medical treatment.... Show these people the benefits of good citizenship.

Of course, after being given multiple chances to clean up and fly right, a repeat offender may find him or herself incarcerated for life, under reason #1 - at a certain point, society must be protected from Bad People

But even someone convicted of a despicable crime and sentenced to life might yet contribute usefully to society. Nathan Leopold, of the infamous Loeb and Leopold murder case (look it up if you're not familiar with it - it did happen quite some time ago) spent much of his time in prison (a sentence of life plus 99) educating other inmates, teaching both GED and college level courses that are credited with helping other inmates sentenced to lesser time to re-enter society and live productive lives. In 1944 he volunteered to be deliberately infected with malaria to assist in medical research on the disease. Despite the gravity of his crime, and that his original sentence was so severe, he was granted parole in 1958 (a lifetime of parole - one screw up he'd be back in prison). He asked that at his death his organs be donated to help others and when he passed away in 1971 that is, in fact, what happened. Granted, he is probably an exception in many ways, but despite deliberately taking a life he nonetheless managed to do some good during his life. Would society have been better off simply executing him? That, to my mind, is an interesting question.

[Turin]

Despite what you might think, it's not a DC or New York studio apartment, but it can be confused with one at first.

No, I mean the toilet, sink, AND mirror are exactly the same! It's like they bought it from the same supplier.

Maybe they did.

As an architect, I can tell you that wouldn't be too surprising. Products that only go into "niche" (typically government) facilities usually end up with only a couple of suppliers after a while. The government has XYZ-standards for their ABC facilities, and the couple of manufacturers who make those products are all working to the same standard, leaving little room for competition (and therefore causing the market to narrow quickly). My work is mostly in the pharmaceutical manufacturing industry, and I see the same sort of thing there.

[DrMckay]

Just as a hypothetical; how effective would bringing back public humiliation in the form of the Stocks or pillories be in deterring "small" crimes (petty thefts, minor offenses, etc.

It's pretty hard to look like badass thief when you're secured in the town square with rotten fruit dripping off of you...

Would such public humiliation have a beneficial effect on minor crime?

[MKSheppard]

I was thinking the standard Orange/Red Jumpsuit, no pockets, one piece, with a Velcro name-tag on the front

Bad idea. The criminals could switch them around.

[Mr Bean]

let me outline my hypothetical prison(Which of course would cost more than current methods)

Mr Bean, your hypothetical prison already existed, here in Philadelphia. It was called Eastern State Penitentiary. Subtract the religious aspects, and you've more-or-less got your system. Unfortunately, it seems that the solitary confinement associated with sentences at this prison drove people crazy. Human beings are social creatures -- eliminating that is one of the more painful things you can do to them in the long run.

I've heard about Eastern before, but as noted, it goes to far. They went with no contact at all, I'm peserving contact in my system(Yard/Gym time) however the time is limited to four hours or less a day instead of the current 18 hours a day.

Bad idea. The criminals could switch them around.

By keeping prison groups small(Ten to twenty) you limit the shenanigans they can get into, and you always have the option to make removal of the name-tag without a big offense, the kind that lands you in a six by three foot box in the dark for a day or a week.

Or alternativly you make the Velcro patchs Large to make removal and replacement very obvious. I want the ability to have the prisoners be able to switch jumpsuits regularly, but if it's not possible we can always go back to the five changes of clothes the current inmates get.

[Mr Bean]

Back on topic, the main issue I have at the moment with prisons is the simple fact they breed repeat offenders. Some people go into jail, they get rapped within a week or two, they bulk up to avoid it happing again(And most likly raped a few more times) join a gang for protection and come out of prison worse than when they started.

When you put armed robbers in with attempted murders in with tax dodgers this kind of thing is going to happen. When prisoners have free and easy access to each other more crimes are committed and society turns a blind eye to it since anything that happens in prison is considered to be part of the punishment.

Except that is the very reason why so many Ex-Con's become Con's again, because they get changed when sent to prison. Which is what my whole system is aimed at eliminating, by keep prisoner contact down to a handful of hours each day, under strict watching, it makes it hard to get raped, smuggle contraband in, engage in gang violence and have contact with all the issues that modern prison systems breed.

[Rhob]

The real question is, how effective is punishment? Which kinds of punishment are more effective than others?

It seems to me that many people no longer look at prison time as something to be avoided at all costs. Rather, it's just something you have to live through if you get caught. How is that either rehabilitation or a deterrent?

[BountyHunterSAx]

Rather, it's just something you have to live through if you get caught. How is that either rehabilitation or a deterrent?

Well isn't that less a reflection on the response of people and more a reflection on the insufficient levels of punishment? Implying that punishment should be something so drastic that you DON'T do it, or DON'T get caught the next time.

-AHMAD

[Rhob]

Well isn't that less a reflection on the response of people and more a reflection on the insufficient levels of punishment? Implying that punishment should be something so drastic that you DON'T do it, or DON'T get caught the next time.

-AHMAD

It would seem that, for some people, the only punishment that would "work" in that sense is death.

[Knife]

The real question is, how effective is punishment? Which kinds of punishment are more effective than others?

It seems to me that many people no longer look at prison time as something to be avoided at all costs. Rather, it's just something you have to live through if you get caught. How is that either rehabilitation or a deterrent?

Why do you think 'punishment' should automatically lead to 'rehab'. I agree it should lead to deterrence though.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Or we could try and, you know, do it right when it comes to reformation, place people in a positive, forward looking enviroment that turns them out improved and ready to move on in the world. It would require a ton of effort and money, but if it worked it would largely eliminate repeat offenders. The only trick would be making it upleasent enough to prevent it being exploited by some people as a cheep way to get an education/leg up.

It won't work unless you totally isolate each prisoner from all the other prisoners to eliminate prison culture, and that would drive them all insane.

[Turin]

I've heard about Eastern before, but as noted, it goes to far. They went with no contact at all, I'm peserving contact in my system(Yard/Gym time) however the time is limited to four hours or less a day instead of the current 18 hours a day.

It won't work unless you totally isolate each prisoner from all the other prisoners to eliminate prison culture, and that would drive them all insane.

The Duchess is making a bit of a false dilemma here, but she has the beginnings of a point, which is that some form of "prison culture" will exist with any social contact. I'd like to extend this a little further and say that what we law-abiding types call "prison culture" is only a particularly brutal extension of the violence-stricken poor areas where a lot of offenders are coming from.

This is where the rehabilitation aspects have to come in. Unless you assume that prisoners are incapable of being reformed (I'm sure some are, but let's ignore that group for the moment), they need to be removed from the environments from which they came as well. That means a) education and jobs, and b) possibly even relocation. I have no idea how to feasibly handle the latter.

[DrMckay]

Just as a hypothetical; how effective would bringing back public humiliation in the form of the Stocks or pillories be in deterring "small" crimes (petty thefts, minor offenses, etc.

It's pretty hard to look like badass thief when you're secured in the town square with rotten fruit dripping off of you...

Would such public humiliation have a beneficial effect on minor crime?

(brief spell in the stocks, etc)

Also, where (In your opinions) does that lie morally and legally? Is it cruel and unusual?


Don't mean to be a post-whore, but I was wondering if I could get some feedback on this hypothetical?

thank you

[Vehrec]

Of course, this is all ignoring the elephant in the room-the fact that the most effective way to reduce most crime would be to remove its attractiveness as a means of generating income, via social engineering. Rehabilitation is just one aspect of this. Frankly, I would like to think we can come up with a more complex solution than having 200 something hanging offenses. You will note that 'deterrence' never stopped crime, it just provides more incentive not to get caught.