Polygamy/Polyandry

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Post by Stormbringer »

Shaka[Zulu] wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:So long as it's allowed equally then i see no reason to bar it.
unfortunately I dont think it can really work in a truly equal fashion. You see, in the great game that is the battle of the sexes, women hold the ultimate trump card -- for every reproductive strategy males might utilize to ensure that their sperm is THE sperm that gets to the egg, it can all be rendered moot by the fact that human females can effectively select whose sperm gets there simply by the timing of the big 'O'. Marriage & other taboos where women are treated as property were for a very long time the premiere means of ensuring that the guy who was supposed to be the daddy was in fact the daddy (and it didnt work all that well), thus putting men on a semi-equal level of control vs the 'fairer' gender. Only recently (in the last 50 years), with the advent of DNA screening, can any man be certain of the lineage of his offspring.
I'm no talking so much about a biological stand point so much as I am a legal one. If the woman can marry multiple husbands instead of it being just men with a more than one wife then I have no problems with it legally or morally.

That doesn't mean I'd want to get involved in one.
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Post by Shaka[Zulu] »

innerbrat wrote: All fine, but you forgot the issue of childcare - humans have extended childhoods and unusually dependant neonates, so biparental care is needed (parallels with birds of prey)
Sorry, in a hurry, so I'll leave it there.
that is true to an extent... for some unfathomable evolutionary reason, we are shackled down with an incredibly long adolescence, but the dependence of our kids is about the same as that for other primates. IIRC none of the other primates exhibit the level of bi-parental care that we do. In fact in most cultures today, males really dont take an active part in rearing kids until after they can walk, and need to start learning... the really dependent stages of childhood are typically left entirely to the women. Now, before that statement gets me in trouble, let me say that it is an observation, and nothing more, given that I have traveled quite extensively (while most of it has been in Africa & Europe).

The BoP analogy breaks down with us because such birds have to adapt their rearing habits to allow for the fact that their principal mode of transport is extremely weight limited -- they can only carry so much meat at a time. combined with the fact that they typically have to raise clutches of young -- almost never a single chick -- you can see that both parents are necessary to provide for all the young's needs (food, shelter & security from other predators) .
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Post by InnerBrat »

Shaka[Zulu] wrote: that is true to an extent... for some unfathomable evolutionary reason, we are shackled down with an incredibly long adolescence, but the dependence of our kids is about the same as that for other primates.
Not at all. Our abnormally large brain case coupled with bipedalism has led to a conflict between the baby's skull and the mother's pelvis. Unlike all other primates, human neonates have an unfused soft skull - whcih continues to grow after birth.
IIRC none of the other primates exhibit the level of bi-parental care that we do. In fact in most cultures today, males really dont take an active part in rearing kids until after they can walk, and need to start learning... the really dependent stages of childhood are typically left entirely to the women. Now, before that statement gets me in trouble, let me say that it is an observation, and nothing more, given that I have traveled quite extensively (while most of it has been in Africa & Europe).
As I've said in another thread, I believe, bi parental care does not need to be provided by the biological parents - in some cultures (such as the Hadza, I believe, but memory like a sieve, don't quote me) the maternal grandmother/ aunt/ friend of the family provides the other support.
BUT in our current society, if it is not supplied by the father (read: partner of the mother), generally parental care is single parent only.
The BoP analogy breaks down with us because such birds have to adapt their rearing habits to allow for the fact that their principal mode of transport is extremely weight limited -- they can only carry so much meat at a time. combined with the fact that they typically have to raise clutches of young -- almost never a single chick -- you can see that both parents are necessary to provide for all the young's needs (food, shelter & security from other predators) .
I apologise about the bird of prey analysis, perhaps songbirds would be better, as we're not a naturally monogamous species (NO! We're not!) With songbirds, biparental care is provided, but EPCs mean that fathers can either avoid raising some of their own chicks or end up raising some other man's. Partner choice on behalf of the female is separate to mate choice.

Polygyny can only really work if the women all participate in raising all the children between them.
Polygyandry, which might well be the natural condition for humans, requires the same amount of cooperation, but between members of each sex.
Polyandry does not have much evolutionary advantage, anyway.
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Post by Shaka[Zulu] »

innerbrat wrote: Not at all. Our abnormally large brain case coupled with bipedalism has led to a conflict between the baby's skull and the mother's pelvis. Unlike all other primates, human neonates have an unfused soft skull - whcih continues to grow after birth.
oops... I forgot about that little factoid. it does indeed expand the duration of total dependence for us (as a percentage of time in adolescence relative to other primates).
As I've said in another thread, I believe, bi parental care does not need to be provided by the biological parents - in some cultures (such as the Hadza, I believe, but memory like a sieve, don't quote me) the maternal grandmother/ aunt/ friend of the family provides the other support.
BUT in our current society, if it is not supplied by the father (read: partner of the mother), generally parental care is single parent only.
so true...
I apologise about the bird of prey analysis, perhaps songbirds would be better, as we're not a naturally monogamous species (NO! We're not!) With songbirds, biparental care is provided, but EPCs mean that fathers can either avoid raising some of their own chicks or end up raising some other man's. Partner choice on behalf of the female is separate to mate choice.
I am certainly no expert on songbirds either... EPC? ummm to which specie does the last part of that paragraph refer? (honest Q... it's sort of all strung together there...)

Polygyny can only really work if the women all participate in raising all the children between them.
Polygyandry, which might well be the natural condition for humans, requires the same amount of cooperation, but between members of each sex.
Polyandry does not have much evolutionary advantage, anyway.
well, it is easier for women to cooperate under situations like that, given that they dont feel they are in competition for the sire/partner (he'd better be more than able to handle them), but I honestly dont beleive that males can overcome their territorial instincts regarding females so easily... of course there are exceptions (swingers for example... I was in such a club about a month ago, and left wondering just that.)
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Post by Darth Wong »

Evolutionary advantage is irrelevant to a discussion of whether polygamy or polyandry is right or wrong.

The human race does not have a crisis of low population, nor is it in any danger of approaching one. Therefore, any and all arguments pertaining to evolutionary advantage or efficient breeding are a waste of time. Unless you can show that it is imperative to increase the human population on Earth as quickly as possible, it is silly to use these arguments in order to justify or condemn these things.
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Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

Darth Wong wrote:Evolutionary advantage is irrelevant to a discussion of whether polygamy or polyandry is right or wrong.

The human race does not have a crisis of low population, nor is it in any danger of approaching one. Therefore, any and all arguments pertaining to evolutionary advantage or efficient breeding are a waste of time. Unless you can show that it is imperative to increase the human population on Earth as quickly as possible, it is silly to use these arguments in order to justify or condemn these things.
Polygamy or polyandry wouldnt even really lead to high population growth if everyone was having a child anyway. ALl it would really do is to is more genetic diversity.
Devolution is quite as natural as evolution, and may be just as pleasing, or even a good deal more pleasing, to God. If the average man is made in God's image, then a man such as Beethoven or Aristotle is plainly superior to God, and so God may be jealous of him, and eager to see his superiority perish with his bodily frame.

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Post by Shaka[Zulu] »

Darth Wong wrote:Evolutionary advantage is irrelevant to a discussion of whether polygamy or polyandry is right or wrong.

The human race does not have a crisis of low population, nor is it in any danger of approaching one. Therefore, any and all arguments pertaining to evolutionary advantage or efficient breeding are a waste of time. Unless you can show that it is imperative to increase the human population on Earth as quickly as possible, it is silly to use these arguments in order to justify or condemn these things.
but m'lord... it isnt so much a discussion of right or wrong at this point, rather it's more about the influence evolutionary pressures had on the development of the cultural taboos and interpesonal behaviors from a historical perspective.

I agree humanity is in no current or potential future danger from underpopulation, but I think we all would like to understand from whence we came a bit better.

BTW, I know you've been busy with the provider change and all, but have you seen the PM I sent you last week (iirc)? I had something of an idea that I wanted to get you opinion on...
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Post by kojikun »

How can you say we're not at risk of low population? There are a mere 6.233 billion people on this planet! If we're to ever run an empire that spans the galaxy we need more then one person for every 25 stars! :lol:
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Post by Sektor31 »

Polygamy/Polyandry would be OK if the culture actually accepted it.

I'm sorry for doing this, but look at the Denobulans from Enterprise. Their families are networks of husbands and wives. I'm guessing the only reason why it's "banned" around here is because of fundamentalism.
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Post by Shaka[Zulu] »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote: Polygamy or polyandry wouldnt even really lead to high population growth if everyone was having a child anyway. ALl it would really do is to is more genetic diversity.
ahhh, but genetic diversity is the point -- rather whose genes (in the case of the male perspective) get to propagate across the largest number of offspring. Males are in constant competition (wether they consciously acknowledge it or not... it's a primal instinct) to seed as many females for themselves as possible, and to deny that same opportunity to every male within his field of vision -- especially if they are not part of his bloodline or (to a lesser extent) social grouping. Human females OTOH, are in competition with other females to secure the genetic material (and in most cultures in general the material support) of the best possible mating partner for that offspring, pretty much in a kind of oblique conflict with the battle males engage in with each other.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Precisely, which is why the urge to produce a huge number of offspring is the sign of an uncivilized, primitive instinct rather than a civilized, thinking mind.
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Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

Darth Wong wrote:Precisely, which is why the urge to produce a huge number of offspring is the sign of an uncivilized, primitive instinct rather than a civilized, thinking mind.
I don't know about that.....

If a Mozart or an Einstein decided to have many children, because he liked kids and thought it would benefit mankind, wouldn't that be the product of a civilized, thinking mind?
Devolution is quite as natural as evolution, and may be just as pleasing, or even a good deal more pleasing, to God. If the average man is made in God's image, then a man such as Beethoven or Aristotle is plainly superior to God, and so God may be jealous of him, and eager to see his superiority perish with his bodily frame.

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Post by Shaka[Zulu] »

Sektor31 wrote:Polygamy/Polyandry would be OK if the culture actually accepted it.

I'm sorry for doing this, but look at the Denobulans from Enterprise. Their families are networks of husbands and wives. I'm guessing the only reason why it's "banned" around here is because of fundamentalism.

please oh please dont bring trek into this... no... this calls for a stronger response:

How DARE you mention a nonsensical, fictitous alien species from what probably the worst series in the annals of sci-fi, from a show so disgustingly pathetic that most here dont even want to acknowledge it even exists, IN THE S.L.A.M FORUM!!!???!!!???!!!???


I demand PENANCE!!! :shock: :x :evil: :twisted:
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Post by Darth Wong »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Precisely, which is why the urge to produce a huge number of offspring is the sign of an uncivilized, primitive instinct rather than a civilized, thinking mind.
I don't know about that.....

If a Mozart or an Einstein decided to have many children, because he liked kids and thought it would benefit mankind, wouldn't that be the product of a civilized, thinking mind?
No, it would be a sign of megalomania and his failure to civilize that part of his personality. The urge to "spread one's seed" is primitive instinct. Unless there is an underpopulation crisis, it is counterproductive and actually harmful in many ways. Look at Africa, dominated by Muslims and Catholics who both tell them that their duty to God is to pump out as many children as they possibly can, even if they can't fucking feed them.
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Post by Shaka[Zulu] »

Darth Wong wrote:Precisely, which is why the urge to produce a huge number of offspring is the sign of an uncivilized, primitive instinct rather than a civilized, thinking mind.
indeed... it is a primitive instinct, but the need to rationally understand might be considered a defining trait of a civilized, thinking mind... how else are we to gain true mastery over the id? religion doesnt work... all it does is supress the urge, allowing it to build in intensity until finally it breaks free to wreak havoc. (waxing philosophic... will stop now...)
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Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

Darth Wong wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Precisely, which is why the urge to produce a huge number of offspring is the sign of an uncivilized, primitive instinct rather than a civilized, thinking mind.
I don't know about that.....

If a Mozart or an Einstein decided to have many children, because he liked kids and thought it would benefit mankind, wouldn't that be the product of a civilized, thinking mind?
No, it would be a sign of megalomania and his failure to civilize that part of his personality. The urge to "spread one's seed" is primitive instinct. Unless there is an underpopulation crisis, it is counterproductive and actually harmful in many ways. Look at Africa, dominated by Muslims and Catholics who both tell them that their duty to God is to pump out as many children as they possibly can, even if they can't fucking feed them.
1. The starvation in Africa has more to do with economic and political factors then it does with over-population.

2. If a genius loved his kids and decided he wanted more, I fail to see how that would constitute "primative instinct". Secondly, If a genius somehow provided a huge benefit to mankind I don't see how it would be "megalomania" for him to think that his kids "might" also benefit the world.
Devolution is quite as natural as evolution, and may be just as pleasing, or even a good deal more pleasing, to God. If the average man is made in God's image, then a man such as Beethoven or Aristotle is plainly superior to God, and so God may be jealous of him, and eager to see his superiority perish with his bodily frame.

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Post by Shaka[Zulu] »

Darth Wong wrote: No, it would be a sign of megalomania and his failure to civilize that part of his personality. The urge to "spread one's seed" is primitive instinct. Unless there is an underpopulation crisis, it is counterproductive and actually harmful in many ways. Look at Africa, dominated by Muslims and Catholics who both tell them that their duty to God is to pump out as many children as they possibly can, even if they can't fucking feed them.
damn straight... Ive been there & seen it first hand.
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Post by Darth Wong »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:1. The starvation in Africa has more to do with economic and political factors then it does with over-population.
Ah, so it's no more difficult to feed 12 children than 3? :roll:
2. If a genius loved his kids and decided he wanted more, I fail to see how that would constitute "primative instinct".
I love my kids and the idea of having a whole gaggle of them has a certain emotional appeal. However, that doesn't mean I think it's a good idea. Men like Einstein thought of their legacy to humanity in terms of ideas, not genetic material.
Secondly, If a genius somehow provided a huge benefit to mankind I don't see how it would be "megalomania" for him to think that his kids "might" also benefit the world.
You're changing the subject. It's megalomania to pump out a huge number of kids because you think the world needs more of you. It's not megalomania to think and hope that your kids will contribute something positive to this world.
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Post by Shaka[Zulu] »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote: 1. The starvation in Africa has more to do with economic and political factors then it does with over-population.
actually, all 3 are equal problems at the current time... the economic and political enslavement of the continent both set up the conditions for a population explosion, and has (very effectively) prevented the necessary technological development for proper land management (agriculture) to support said explosion... if one wasnt indoctrinated better, one might think it was all part of a grand scheme to marginalize and eventually eliminate any 'negroid' influence on the continent. yes, it sounds dangerously like a conspiracy theory, but given the history of the colonial powers in their treatment of Africa, it isn't so farfetched.
2. If a genius loved his kids and decided he wanted more, I fail to see how that would constitute "primative instinct". Secondly, If a genius somehow provided a huge benefit to mankind I don't see how it would be "megalomania" for him to think that his kids "might" also benefit the world.
so long as the 'might' is in there I dont see the megalomania either... after all many people who have kids share that hope that their kids will do more, be more than they themselves were... but I also have to say that quantity of offspring does not equate to quality of same.
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Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

Ah, so it's no more difficult to feed 12 children than 3?
I never said that it wasn't. The fact remains though that many of these 12 children would actually LIVE if it wasn't for the marxist dictators who ruled the 3rd Wolrd African countries.
Devolution is quite as natural as evolution, and may be just as pleasing, or even a good deal more pleasing, to God. If the average man is made in God's image, then a man such as Beethoven or Aristotle is plainly superior to God, and so God may be jealous of him, and eager to see his superiority perish with his bodily frame.

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Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

Darth Wong wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
2. If a genius loved his kids and decided he wanted more, I fail to see how that would constitute "primative instinct".
I love my kids and the idea of having a whole gaggle of them has a certain emotional appeal. However, that doesn't mean I think it's a good idea. Men like Einstein thought of their legacy to humanity in terms of ideas, not genetic material.


So what if this genius differs in opinion and thinks a gaggle of kids is a good idea? I have no problem with people having as many children as they like, as long as they are capable of properly raising and caring for them.
Devolution is quite as natural as evolution, and may be just as pleasing, or even a good deal more pleasing, to God. If the average man is made in God's image, then a man such as Beethoven or Aristotle is plainly superior to God, and so God may be jealous of him, and eager to see his superiority perish with his bodily frame.

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Post by Darth Wong »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:So what if this genius differs in opinion and thinks a gaggle of kids is a good idea?
He would have to explain this opinion in light of the global overpopulation problem. Since he would have trouble doing this without resorting to egotistical declaration that humanity is in desperate need of his genetic material, he would have to be either a megalomaniac or an overrated genius. If he is honest and smart, he would admit that it's not a good idea but he's doing it anyway for emotional reasons.
I have no problem with people having as many children as they like, as long as they are capable of properly raising and caring for them.
Don't try to make it seem as if I'm out to ban it; I'm just pointing out that it's an uncivilized base instinct.
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Post by BlkbrryTheGreat »

Darth Wong wrote:
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:So what if this genius differs in opinion and thinks a gaggle of kids is a good idea?
He would have to explain this opinion in light of the global overpopulation problem. Since he would have trouble doing this without resorting to egotistical declaration that humanity is in desperate need of his genetic material, he would have to be either a megalomaniac or an overrated genius. If he is honest and smart, he would admit that it's not a good idea but he's doing it anyway for emotional reasons.
I have no problem with people having as many children as they like, as long as they are capable of properly raising and caring for them.
Don't try to make it seem as if I'm out to ban it; I'm just pointing out that it's an uncivilized base instinct.
Over population is not the problem... parts of the world not adobting capitalism is the problem. The parts of the world that have embraced capitalism have an abundance of food. The parts of the world that haven't accepted Capitalism are getting pity crates of food from the parts of the World that have.

Secondly, EVERY instinct is an "uncivilized base instinct". If your going to use this as a criteria for disqualifying activities, better be prepared to give up eating, breating, and having sex.
Devolution is quite as natural as evolution, and may be just as pleasing, or even a good deal more pleasing, to God. If the average man is made in God's image, then a man such as Beethoven or Aristotle is plainly superior to God, and so God may be jealous of him, and eager to see his superiority perish with his bodily frame.

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Post by Darth Wong »

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Over population is not the problem... parts of the world not adobting capitalism is the problem. The parts of the world that have embraced capitalism have an abundance of food. The parts of the world that haven't accepted Capitalism are getting pity crates of food from the parts of the World that have.
Actually, there aren't enough resources for the entire planet's population to have the USA's lifestyle and standard of living. If you extrapolated American consumption of energy, grazing land for livestock, production of pollutants, etc. to 6 billion people, it just wouldn't work.
Secondly, EVERY instinct is an "uncivilized base instinct". If your going to use this as a criteria for disqualifying activities, better be prepared to give up eating, breating, and having sex.
Eating and breathing are necessities, and are quite easily justifiable from a logical standpoint for that reason. Sex is pleasurable, and causes no harm whatsoever. These examples are not remotely analogous to the asinine behaviour of fundies pumping out hordes of children.
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Post by Shaka[Zulu] »

ummm... when did fundies get in here? where??? :wink:
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