Morality and Legality of Keeping Wild Animals in Captivity

[Kanastrous]

'Mantling' = partially spreading their wings to cover an item they want to protect?

[Broomstick]

Correct.

I found some pictures from the falconer I know on line. This is a good one of a Harris hawk mantling a kill - specifically, from the person with a camera. Note that she is NOT defending the kill from the falconer whom, presumably, she trusts more than the person with the camera:


This is one of a falconer taking a bird's kill while distracting the bird:


This is one of a goshawk who knows her kill has been taken. For those unfamiliar with bird body language, she's pissed:

[Alyrium Denryle]

As the humans do take away the bird's kill and only return a portion of it, there is probably some sense they we, too, are getting something out of the deal. Individual birds vary in their awareness of this "looting", but some do engage in practices like "mantling" to guard their kills or act suspicious when a big thing disappears to be replaced by a few shreds of meat on a glove.

It is not unknown for raptors to hunt cooperatively in the wild, and Harris hawks actually hunt in family units in their desert habitats. So, the birds probably figure we're getting something out of the deal, even if they aren't clear on what, exactly, that is. If they think about it at all, they probably assume we're eating part of each kill, just as they are. (In some cases that's even true) They put up with it, as far as I can see, because they're assured a steady supply of food even on bad hunting days. That means a lot to a bird, as raptors, like all birds, have very high metabolisms and can starve to death very quickly compared to other animals.

That is the way I look at it. The birds probably have a primary consciousness (some sense of awareness of their environment. They may or may not have a sense of self but they can definitely engage in abstract thinking, have memory, and some foresight). Just apply optimal foraging theory. That bird has a constant risk-free patch of food cantered on the big featherless...thing. Why would it ever leave? Hell, I have a toad living on my front patio because my AC unit drips water onto the concrete and insects are attracted by the light. Any given night I can see him out there soaking up water and waiting for some poor unfortunate moth to fall out of the sky. I have named him Steve. I can pick him up etc. He is always there.

The bird is probably the same way. He has everything he needs. He may have to put up with a few minor annoyances, but he knows at the end of the day no matter what the weather is like or whether he catches prey or not... he goes to sleep with a full stomach, in safety with optimum temperature. And it all comes from that big featherless freak that sometimes takes part of the kill.

[Kanastrous]

There's a Far Side cartoon in there somewhere.

[Broomstick]

Probably.

Anyhow - I'd say the falconer's relationship with the bird is an ideal to shoot for. The human spends years learning the proper way to interact with a raptor (this will vary by species). The bird is free to leave at any time (well, at least while outside).

Personally, I think it should take that much dedication to have a wild animal or even some of the more common exotics as pets.

[Lusankya]

Personally, I think it should take that much dedication to have a wild animal or even some of the more common exotics as pets.

Fixed to more accurately reflect my own feelings. Not all pets require the same kind of special training that is required for raptors, but owning a pet is a commitment that can last for decades (my family's cat is fifteen and still going strong, and I've had family members with cats who have lived to be over twenty, and that's nothing compared to the lifespans of turtles and some parrots). Anyone who wants to keep a pet should be prepared to live up to that commitment. That's actually the main reason I don't have any pets right now: at the moment, I don't feel I'll be able to provide a stable enough environment for a pet, and I am unsure whether or not I will remain in the same country for an animal's entire lifespan.

[Broomstick]

The thing is, dogs and humans have lived together long enough that there some evidence we have influenced each other's evolution (not proven, mind you, just suggested). People and dogs "read" each other much more readily than say, people and parrots. While I agree that owning a dog is no less a responsibility and obligation than partnering with a hunting raptor I don't think it reasonable to require years of apprenticeship to own a dog.

The flip side of regulating pet ownership is the folks who get too intrusive on other peoples' lives, or start saying that no one without a house and a yard can own a dog (plenty of apartment dogs are quite happy). Then there's the perennial argument about cat people about whether or not cats should be let outside or not, under what circumstances if they are. When I lived in Chicago I never let my cats out (my roommate at one point did train her cat to walk on a leash - it's possible, but you have to start early and need a lot of patience), it just wasn't safe. Way out in the country, if you're talking about "barn cats" - different story. Those are just examples, it can get truly ridiculous.

[Kanastrous]

It seems that it might be reasonable to restrict the size of a dog that can be kept in an apartment or small house without a yard.

Someone keeping a Lhasa Apso in a 3rd floor studio apartment doesn't sound like much of a problem. Change that to a Irish Wolfhound, a Great Dane or Presa Canario stuffed into a small space with no yard to run in and it starts to look pretty cruel to the dog.

I once met a lovely gay couple in Studio City walking their lovely (possibly gay) Abyssinians on leashes. Or possibly the Abyssinians were walking them. Tough to say.

[Slacker]

Well, to extend the debate out even further from birds, what about fish? I keep freshwater tropical fish, and they're certainly not pets in the same sense a dog or cat are, but they're certainly well cared for and the tropical fish industry has actually done great things in preservation and conservation. There are literally dozens of species of fish that would be extinct if not for the hobby-the African lake cichlids are the big ones, from Lake Victoria and Malawi, but the red-tail shark is actually extinct in nature but exists in tremendous numbers all over the world. My fish aren't really smart, my tank is full of lots of little guys, but an oscar or bichir can be extremely intelligent and can be considered a 'wet pet'.

[Broomstick]

Yes, my Other Half had an oscar he trained to do tricks.

[Slacker]

Oscars have a ton of personality, I plan on getting one when we've got the room for another tank that won't result in my wife killing me.

There are also documented cases of bichirs literally outliving their owners-one case I know of from an aquarium forum had a bichir passing from grandfather to father to son, who is now in his 40s with the bichir still going strong.

[Broomstick]

Returning to this thread...

What do you folks think of pet skunks?

There are breeders of "domestic" skunks in the US, breeding both for color patterns and for temperament.

In the US and Canada legality varies by state/province, with all but one where it is legal requiring the owner to have a permit. They are legal in the UK, but since it is no longer legal to remove their scent glands it has much the same effect as a de facto ban.

It is customary to remove the scent glands of pet skunks, for reasons that are obvious if you have ever smelled skunk-spray. As noted, that is no longer permitted in the UK.

There are concerns about skunks and rabies - wild skunks can act as carriers, and there is, apparently, no vaccine approved specifically for skunks (dog vaccine is usually used, but it is not known how reliable it truly is). Local health authorities have been known to be rather quick to euthanize pet skunks out of rabies fears.

Skunks are wild animals in North America, but they have also been kept as pets for quite some time (Natives used to keep them as pets, and apparently they filled some of the same rodent-control role as cats did in Europe and Asia)

[Kanastrous]

I think skunks are very cute little critters, unless I'm on the receiving end of their chemical weaponry.

I don't find the idea of pet skunks objectionable, although for aromatic reasons I doubt I'd keep one myself.

[Broomstick]

Well, that IS why the scent glands are normally removed...

[Kanastrous]

Well, there's that whole no-longer-legal-to-remove-em thing. Also for my part I feel badly about...modifying...animals, although I admit that I'll spay/neuter same as anyone else.

*edit* now I see that the ban you mentioned is only in the UK...

[Broomstick]

Most of the US states actually have a complete ban on pet skunks, usually rationalized as either "no keeping native/wild animals as pets" and/or "RABIES!"

[Alyrium Denryle]

Most of the US states actually have a complete ban on pet skunks, usually rationalized as either "no keeping native/wild animals as pets" and/or "RABIES!"

That makes me kinda sad. About the only mammals I like and would ever keep other than a dog or cat are mustelids like skunks, stoats or otters.

[Kanastrous]

Do stoats deserve their reputation for plain vicious-ness?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Do stoats deserve their reputation for plain vicious-ness?

I imagine they do because they are vicious little monsters that chase down rabbits several times their own mass individually and kill them with a bite to the back of the head... But as far as in captivity is concerned I have no clue. They are however, adorable.

[LadyTevar]

I have a friend who had a pet raccoon. He lived in the backyard, ate dog food and kitchen scraps, and let the famly pet and hold him. They'd raised him from a cub, tho.

Another friend had "Johnny Fever", the chipmunk. He had to stay in a modified rabbit house, because he did NOT like being held for long and would bite.

The same family also had a couple Eastern Cottontails (rescued from family cats) they raised alongside their Lops. The cottontails, being smaller, were usually easier to hold and pet than the lops.

[Kanastrous]

Raccoons are *way* too damn smart, for me to want one around the house. Particularly since they have little hands, and they know how to use them, too...

[Edi]

Over here the ban on wild animals is "Banned, period!" No ifs, buts or maybes. That would rule out pet skunks or the like. Even the zoo removes their scent glands, because it wouldn't do for visitors to get sprayed.

One of the animal handlers there talked to me about the skunks and said one year they managed to make dig a den under some rocks that had not been sufficiently skunk-proofed against that event and the babies had active musk glands by the time they dug them out. She said she didn't get the smell off her body for a week and the work clothes were a write-off.

The only way you could get to keep something wild would be if it were too injured to be able to make it on its own and you had sufficient facilities to provide a good home for the animal. Mainly this would require that you had a house and/or didn't live in the city, depending on the animal. I can see how you could keep a crow or magpie or similar bird even in the city, but not birds of prey of any kind. Zoos are generally good about nursing animals back to health and moving suitable animals to other zoos that may have a use for them.

[Kanastrous]

I have a couple friends who keep illicit crows as house pets. Wow, but those birds are smart.

[LadyTevar]

I have a couple friends who keep illicit crows as house pets. Wow, but those birds are smart.

I have heard if you split a crow's tongue it can learn to talk, although that's a cruel thing to do to one.

[Kanastrous]

Sounds like an old wives' tale, but who knows...

...if I did that to a crow I'd hate to hear what the crow would have to say, about me.