EvilGrey wrote:Theists are not obligated to justify their belief in God to you.
They are if they intend to claim that it's a fact rather than a faith. And when you use belief in God to justify laws (such as anti-gay discrimination) and actions in THIS world, you are treating it as a fact.
We have a unique situation here. Because 95% of the world believes in God, it is up to the atheist to disprove the existence of God before he can justify laws and actions rooted in his God-less ideology.
The burden of proof shifts to you. I know, it's unfair, and I love it!
EvilGrey wrote:Theists are not obligated to justify their belief in God to you.
They are if they intend to claim that it's a fact rather than a faith. And when you use belief in God to justify laws (such as anti-gay discrimination) and actions in THIS world, you are treating it as a fact.
We have a unique situation here. Because 95% of the world believes in God, it is up to the atheist to disprove the existence of God before he can justify laws and actions rooted in his God-less ideology.
The burden of proof shifts to you. I know, it's unfair, and I love it!
even if that stat is accurate, 95% believes in a god not in God.
"I fight with love, and I laugh with rage, you gotta live light enough to see the humour and long enough to see some change" - Ani DiFranco, Pick Yer Nose
"Life 's not a song, life isn't bliss, life is just this: it's living." - Spike, Once More with Feeling
You cannot disprove the existence of God, thereby giving Christians and other theists little cause for concern.
Red-herring fallacy. I was talking about disproving Christianity, not disproving the Vague God.
The Vague God is an unnecessary hypothesis, but Christianity itself requires numerous impossibilities, such as bringing the dead back to life etc. Christianity can be disproven.
EvilGrey wrote:We have a unique situation here. Because 95% of the world believes in God, it is up to the atheist to disprove the existence of God before he can justify laws and actions rooted in his God-less ideology.
But MOST of those theists do NOT see homosexuality as wrong. That is a belief that is pretty much unique to the Jewish/Christian/Muslim faiths.
The burden of proof shifts to you. I know, it's unfair, and I love it!
Wrong. The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the the one claiming something exists. BTW, your post was a textbook case of the Appeal to Popularity fallacy.
Last edited by Darth Servo on 2003-05-15 06:44pm, edited 1 time in total.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
EvilGrey wrote:We have a unique situation here. Because 95% of the world believes in God, it is up to the atheist to disprove the existence of God before he can justify laws and actions rooted in his God-less ideology.
The burden of proof shifts to you. I know, it's unfair, and I love it!
After being led by the nose to a descrption of Burden of Proof, it does it again with a Appeal to Popularity for added flavor! I love it!
innerbrat wrote:even if that stat is accurate, 95% believes in a god not in God.
The difference being?
The difference being that MOST of those other 'gods' do NOT say things like homosexuality is wrong. The difference being that the Deist concept of God does NOT interfere in the operation of the universe the way the Christians say God does.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
Darth Servo wrote:Wrong. The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the the one claiming something exists. BTW, your post was a textbook case of the Appeal to Popularity fallacy.
I'm not claiming the number of believers is proof that God exists.
Anyways, back to the point: Most people in this world are theists, thus, it becomes the job of the atheist to disprove God before he can attempt to effectuate any change in society.
In theory, it should be the role of theist to prove God exists, in reality, the situation is different given the nature of most people, i.e., that they are theists.
EvilGrey wrote:Why should you care? You don't believe in Christianity so why let its concept of Hell bother you?
1) IF your religion is correct, then it doesn't matter what I believe. According to YOU, I'm going to spend eternity in hell. That thought ALONE is supposed to scare me into converting to your religion, right? Besides, the very notion of hell would bother ANYONE with a functioning brain.
2) Who said I wasn't a Christian? I reject YOUR interpretation of Christianity, but that doesn't mean I'm not one myself. The fact is I have said NOTHING about my own religious beliefs or lack there of ANYWHERE on this board so don't jump to conclusions.
Last edited by Darth Servo on 2003-05-15 06:55pm, edited 1 time in total.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
I think this EvilGrey is just some Christian bot. It's got this database of stupid assertions and an algorithmn that turns them into post every couple of minutes.
The most basic assumption about the world is that it does not contradict itself.
innerbrat wrote:even if that stat is accurate, 95% believes in a god not in God.
The difference being?
The difference being that MOST of those other 'gods' do NOT say things like homosexuality is wrong. The difference being that the Deist concept of God does NOT interfere in the operation of the universe the way the Christians say God does.
Disregarding God and theism altogether, an objective analysis of homosexuality does lend credence to the theistic claim that homosexuality is abnormal.
Probably the result of exposure to the wrong hormones in the mother's womb.
EvilGrey wrote:Anyways, back to the point: Most people in this world are theists, thus, it becomes the job of the atheist to disprove God before he can attempt to effectuate any change in society.
In theory, it should be the role of theist to prove God exists, in reality, the situation is different given the nature of most people, i.e., that they are theists.
You still don't get it. LOGICALLY (the thing you seem to be alergic to) the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the one claiming ANYTHING exists. This has been explained to you MULTIPLE TIMES now. Do I need to repeat it again?
Hint: no one can disprove the existance of invisible unicorns and dragons and Santa Clause. I guess people who believe in them are just as rational as everyone else.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
Hey eviltard, the BURDON OF PROOF still applies, even if the majority of the population is deist. Logic is not some dynamic idea that bends with what the population wants the believe...
HOMOSEXUALITY IS NORMAL... Can you show me one species of mammal that DOES NOT engage in homosexual acts? I didn't think so. Humans are no exception. Evil, you are only showing your ignorance here...
EvilGrey wrote:Theists are not obligated to justify their belief in God to you.
They are if they intend to claim that it's a fact rather than a faith. And when you use belief in God to justify laws (such as anti-gay discrimination) and actions in THIS world, you are treating it as a fact.
We have a unique situation here. Because 95% of the world believes in God, it is up to the atheist to disprove the existence of God before he can justify laws and actions rooted in his God-less ideology.
The burden of proof shifts to you. I know, it's unfair, and I love it!
What does disproving God have to do with ideology? Religous ideology is based on what the religion's Holy books say, and in some cases (Like the way Muslim fanatics like the Taliban in the Middle East inerpert the Quran), it ends up causing harm. Secular ideology is based on what is viewed as good for humanity.
EvilGrey wrote:Disregarding God and theism altogether, an objective analysis of homosexuality does lend credence to the theistic claim that homosexuality is abnormal.
Abnormal perhaps. So is being a midget. Being abnormal does NOT make it immoral (well, it did in the Dark ages when all those "good God-fearing Christians thought anything out of the ordinary was proof of satan worshipping and had the person killed).
Probably the result of exposure to the wrong hormones in the mother's womb.
I don't care what causes it. You have NOT given a logical reason why homosexuality is immoral. And if it IS caused by some hormonal imballance or other biological factor, then the person in question really has no choice in the matter does he/she. Therefore, he/she should NOT be discriminated against for being a homosexual.
Last edited by Darth Servo on 2003-05-15 07:00pm, edited 1 time in total.
"everytime a person is born the Earth weighs just a little more."--DMJ on StarTrek.com
"You see now you are using your thinking and that is not a good thing!" DMJay on StarTrek.com
"Watching Sarli argue with Vympel, Stas, Schatten and the others is as bizarre as the idea of the 40-year-old Virgin telling Hugh Hefner that Hef knows nothing about pussy, and that he is the expert."--Elfdart
Darth Servo wrote:1) IF your religion is correct, then it doesn't matter what I believe. According to YOU, I'm going to spend eternity in hell. That thought ALONE is supposed to scare me into converting to your religion, right? Besides, the very notion of hell would bother ANYONE with a functioning brain.
If you fall back one level and examine what Hell actually represents, you have no need to fear it any longer. It is merely a place or state of being where God is no longer with you because you rejected Him.
However, having read Revelation yesterday, I can't help but wonder WTF the man who wrote it was smoking. Sounds like a typical drug-induced hallucination.
2) Who said I wasn't a Christian? I reject YOUR interpretation of Christianity, but that doesn't mean I'm not one myself.
Good for you.
The fact is I have said NOTHING about my own religious beliefs or lack there of ANYWHERE on this board so don't jump to conclusions.
Likewise, I have never once stated my religion, nor have I ever claimed to have one. But, the bitter atheists on this board saw that I was defending theism and labelled me a fundie moron.
Your a fundamentalist. You believe the same things they all do: That you religion is absolutely correct. That, and you have the second Anderson-level Wall Of Ignorance ever recorded.
Of course, I love the 95% figure you extracted from your ass. It somehow escapes you atheism officially accounts for a minimum of 1/6th the world's population...
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
EvilGrey wrote:Anyways, back to the point: Most people in this world are theists, thus, it becomes the job of the atheist to disprove God before he can attempt to effectuate any change in society.
In theory, it should be the role of theist to prove God exists, in reality, the situation is different given the nature of most people, i.e., that they are theists.
You still don't get it. LOGICALLY (the thing you seem to be alergic to) the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the one claiming ANYTHING exists. This has been explained to you MULTIPLE TIMES now. Do I need to repeat it again?
Hint: no one can disprove the existance of invisible unicorns and dragons and Santa Clause. I guess people who believe in them are just as rational as everyone else.
Did you not read what I wrote?
Let me help you out here:
Most people are theists.
Theists control the world.
Religion and God profoundly shapes how a person thinks and behaves.
If you wish to effectuate change in the world, you must first proceed to convince the theist that change is good because he is the one with the power, and his perspective is deeply biased because his religion has had a radical effect on his way of thinking.
Religion and God profoundly shapes how a person thinks and behaves.
If you wish to effectuate change in the world, you must first proceed to convince the theist that change is good because he is the one with the power, and his perspective is deeply biased because his religion has had a radical effect on his way of thinking.
Appeal To Popularity Fallacy. You Lose! Good Day Sir!
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Superman wrote:HOMOSEXUALITY IS NORMAL... Can you show me one species of mammal that DOES NOT engage in homosexual acts? I didn't think so. Humans are no exception. Evil, you are only showing your ignorance here...
It is normal only in that it occurs with predictable frequency as other disorders do, thus it is to be expected -- and any theist who believes otherwise is ignorant/delusional/stupid.
